Unscrupulous Pagans
Every sector of humanity has it’s share of selfish, money grubbing sycophants who will take you for every penny you’re willing to toss their way. While these people tend to stick to more popular avenues of depravity (such as pyramid schemes), the worst of the lot pray on the religiously insecure (pun intended). This particular group of marks is substantially easier to trick out of their money simply for the promise of a special status or enlightenment. Since this isn’t anything new (Robert Tilton, for example), I tend to glaze over it with a pessimistic apathy. That is, however, with the notable exception of fellow Pagans. When I see this in our religion, I tend to become outraged. Enter the painfully ugly WorkingWitches.com and the following Google ad I found for them:
As you can see, the ad claims they offer some “Wiccan Degree Program” and being on Adsence, it’s a safe bet they’re out for profit. This instantly sent off my bullshit alarm because a) There is no accredited school in Paganism able to offer a degree, b) it makes claims of “Advanced Wiccan Certification”, in spite of the fact there is no organized religious body behind the faith and c) religion isn’t something that can be bought. Angry, and getting more so by the second, I dove into the rabbit hole and came up with how the scam works.
Like every scam in the world, they like to be a little short on the details. For example, they don’t explain or give any information on the tradition you’ll be “learning”. Considering how individualized most Pagan (and especially Wiccan) paths are, this should be out there in big, bold text. If you wanted an apple, you would simply buy a bag titled “Fruit” would you? What about the “school” itself? Is it incorporated or does all the money simply go into “Raven Moonshadows’” pocket? What’s more, they include zero information on this “Lady Raven Moonshadow” (or should I say
The tuition fees for enrolling, and continuing enrollment in the College of the Sacred Mists are as follows: a one time enrollment fee of $25.00 (requested for each degree, upon enrollment), and a $20.00 per month tuition fee. PayPal tuition subscriptions are maintained on a month-to-month automatic subscription basis, with the first payment totaling $45.00. Money Order tuition submissions require a semi-annual pre-payment schedule. Your tuitions help to support the College activities, administration and time that goes into the quality education and experience found within Sacred Mists. We’re confident that you’ll not find the same quality, interaction and atmosphere anywhere else regardless of cost!
Let me get this right. First, I pay you $25 just to join up, then you get another $25 for every degree I get and finally, you charge me $20 a month for the program itself. Notice how this doesn’t say a single word about how long the “classes” are? You have to dig around a bit more to find that all degree programs go by the 1 year, 1 day standard with traditional covens. So for a single degree, you’ll be paying $265. Twice that if you go for the “elder” program. Mind you, that’s if you even pass. Since the ToS for the site clearly puts all the power in the hands of Moonscam, nothing stops her from saying you need a few more months of training.
Now, I want to be clear. There are a lot of Pagan/Wiccan classes out there that charge a fee and I have no problem with them. Those that have physical needs like a rented room to work out of, books, printing costs, transportation, etc need help covering the costs. This garbage however, is all online. Running a simple trace on ARIN shows they’re hosted by Pair. They have accounts that start at about $6 a month. Dive a little deeper and you find all this communication is being done over MSN Groups, a free service. So, again, where is all this money going?
Clearly, this is profiting in the name of religion. Lorien is targeting young, naive and gullible people into shelling out hard earned money better spent on far more worthy endeavors. It’s a disgrace to Pagans everywhere. Anyone currently paying for this needs to wake up and realize there are countless thousands of free, open communities on the internet that can help teach you everything you need to know. There may also be groups in your area willing to give you personal, one-on-one instruction. Just check the WitchVox Pagan Networking site and you’ll find thousands across the world.
RSS 2.0
Merry meet dear (I am not sure what your name is? I don’t see that you have signed your post?)
I am a Second Degree Priestess of the Coven of Sacred Mists (www.workingwitches.com) and a member of the Sacred Mists College Student Council. I have been a student of Sacred Mists since its inception in 2001.
While you are entitled to your opinion, I find it is based on many assumptions. Thank you for posting our website address; I invite anyone who is interested in learning more to find out for themselves rather than relying on information from someone who has no personal knowledge of the warm, welcoming, educational and spiritual Wiccan Community that is Sacred Mists.
I challenge anyone to compare what Sacred Mists has to offer the Pagan Community with any other Wiccan Online College available today. I will remind the author of the above post that as an online College we have the availability to reach out to students all over the world; and indeed, we are a thriving International Community.
If anyone, including the unknown author of this post, would like more information on Sacred Mists Online Wiccan College, they are most welcome to email me personally.
Brightest blessings,
Priestess Shanelle Mystal deVenus
Coven of the Sacred Mists
shauni@workingwitches.com
shanelleve@aol.com
First, it’s not very hard to figure out who I am. After all, my name is in the url, the titlebar, the bio page, the footer, many posts, the site’s registration details, the photo pages, twice in the header image and several other pages I’m sure I’ve overlooked. Since this is my personal blog, there’s never been much of a reason to sign anything.
That aside, hi. I’m Juvenall Wilson. Not a magical name, not a pseudonym.
While I’m sure it’s very “warm, welcoming, educational and spiritual”, it’s still unscrupulous. Lying about a degree program in Wicca is misleading when what’s really being offered is a certificate program from a coven that few outside of the “school” know of. This gives a false sense of authority. No assumption here. The only difference between this and those “Get your PhD via email” scams is “Sacred Mists” willingness to take advantage of the spiritually misguided.
Further, no assumptions were made when I criticized “Lady Raven Moonshadow” with her lack of credentials. Asking what gives her the right to teach is a very valid question. The only people who ask for money and fail to make what gives them the ability to do the service they’re offering are scammers. So anyone who believes in caveat emperor and a little due diligence before throwing that much money out the window would have the same questions.
Finally, with respect to the “school’s” internationalization, that’s how the internet works. I’m a member of many pagan forums, chat groups, IRC rooms and Yahoo Groups that are filled with people from around the world. Not one of them demands payment for the right to talk with others. Pagan’s should know better than to force payment for dissemination of information.
Just for you,
Juvenall Wilson
Merry meet Juvenall,
Thank you for the introduction! I apologise I wasn’t formerly familiar with your blog and for not realizing this was your personal site. That certainly does explain why you didn’t sign your post.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I encourage anyone who is interested in Wiccan Training to carefully research beforehand any internet group that offers schooling in exchange for payment. Ask questions! Check the http://www.witchvox.com site for recommendations. Speak to others who have previously experienced any given program and ask about their experience.
Credentials, class descriptions and all pertinant information regarding Lady Raven Moonshadow and Sacred Mists College are available on and within the http://www.workingwitches.com website, and the website itself has been honored two years in a row as 2004 and 2005 “Best of the Best” in the publication “The Web’s Greatest Hits” by Lynie Arden… “Site is extraordinarily good, regardless of topic.”
And as always, I am happy to answer any questions regarding Sacred Mists College and the Sacred Mist Tradition.
Brightest blessings!
Shauni Waterdragon
shauni@workingwitches.com
shauni@aol.com
Greetings Juvenall,
I think what you are pointing out in the post on your website is the very basis of Wicca itself. It is not sanctioned by any one governing organization. My hope is that it never will be… at least not to the level that the Christian/Catholic churches are. That would leave a world of eclecticism behind and force a doctrine-based spirituality that many of us have fled from in the first place.
My training is not hidden, and is readily available for those who ask. I find it interesting that you did not. Had you asked, you would have found that I have been on this path for 17 years, and gained my formalized training with the Coven of the Golden Skye, a Coven I remained with for eight years formally. My story goes on from there, but I think that provides enough for you at this time.
Wiccan Degrees are not University Degrees and I have never touted them as such. They are a measure of study, knowledge and training within a particular Circle or Coven’s belief system. I have never, and will never, state otherwise. Sadly, no reputable accrediting agency will touch Wiccan programs. Believe me, I have tried. I have done my research and reached out to as many as I can find and they simply will not recognize them. I can only assume that this is because they cannot come to grips with our content. That hasn’t deterred my conviction to continue trying. We are, however, involved with many well known organizations where we are lending our assistance, for example, toward gaining approval for Pagan military grave markers so that they can bear the symbol of the sacred pentacle. This one is an uphill battle, but indeed we will continue on the issue until those who wish to follow this path, and leave their spiritual legacy behind in such a way, may do so with the support of the government whom they served in this lifetime. We also have sent in a great deal of donation money for those affected this past year with natural disasters, both humans and their animals. There are so many other areas we are involved in and yet, you do not know this because you did not ask.
We have a current staffing base of 10 people, all of whom require payment for hourly services (yes, real 40 hour per week jobs) and without them we would not be able to serve those who come to us for training. We also must pay for lighting of our office, general power, computer and telephone systems including a toll-free number so that students do not have to spend their own money speaking with us directly, dedicated servers, office supplies, printer ink, paper, taxes, licensing, advertising (Yes, advertising. Which is extremely costly. This is not “Field of Dreams” and letting people know we are available to them is a requirement, regardless of venue), accounting, and far more beyond that. I see that you mentioned that we are not designated “non-profit”. Do you have any idea of the costs involved with a non-profit organization? I do, and with a group as large as ours that would still need to bring in tuitions in order to continue operating; the basic cost for accountant efforts, state and federal filings and otherwise can go into the thousands of dollars each year. Non-profit doesn’t mean that those working within the organization don’t get compensated for their services. It simply means that the organization is an entity that does not make a direct profit in and of itself. For us, at this time, we prefer to keep tuitions as low as possible for each student and keep the quality of education and interaction extremely high and we strive to ensure that we can do that each and every day by making sure that what we engage in does not increase the bottom line for everyone involved. I think that is smart, don’t you?
We hire students within our College as positions open (currently we have 4 students on staff), providing home-based, legitimate jobs to those who would otherwise not be able to make a living. We also have an Oversight Committee in the form of a Student Council who act as the governing group for the whole of the College. No single person is the decision maker. Our accountant is also a student of the College and has full access to all financials. If anything was amiss, rest assured it would be well known.
While I appreciate your opinion, I must say that it is just that. An opinion. I disagree with your opinion and must say that it is indeed short-sighted and most definitely not based on the reality of what we are about and what we are doing. Point in fact, I stipend the operations of the College each and every month with personal money taken directly from my own family earnings in order to make financial ends meet and have done so for the 5 years we have been available in this venue. No one is lining their pockets, no one is getting rich and no one has the desire to do anything but ensure that we can continue forward on the path of teaching and growing with those who seek to do so through our offerings. Our offerings may not be for everyone, but that does not mean we are unscrupulous. That is a rather bold statement, particularly when you aren’t clear on what you are writing about and I do not agree with your statement in any fashion. Of course, I realize I do not have to as they are merely opinions from someone outside of the issue who has no facts to back up their opinions and nothing more.
On the subject of pseudonyms, have you thought of the reason why people in this arena use them? I’d like to suggest that you might think on it, as you so boldly state my mundane name without thinking of the harm that could possibly befall my own family because of it. I have children, and a large majority of my family is extremely religious right. I do not share my path with all of them because it would hurt them and I do not feel the need to hurt them simply to make me feel ‘seen’. Beyond that, I believe in the power of thought and belief. I believe that you can believe your own afterlives into reality. As such, if my very religious right family believes that my path will surely manifest my eternal damnation thus resulting in them never seeing me again, I believe they can surely make this a reality for themselves. I do not want that to happen and because of your post, a search on my name now will reveal the link to my own, very personal, chosen spiritual path. Just perhaps, the revelation of my personal path to others who do not follow this path is a choice for me to make and not one for you to make for me? For someone who seems to claim themselves Pagan, surely you understand the need, or choice, for pseudonyms and magickal names. Surely you understand the harm that could befall someone who chooses not to come fully out of the broom closet for their own personal reasons? Perhaps you will consider removing my mundane name from your original post. I would appreciate it, for those reasons alone. Thank you for your consideration.
Why am I sharing this with you? Because I think, in a very round about way, you asked. I have nothing to hide. Sacred Mists was brought to the online venue to continue the vision of facilitating positive change within those who seek it, and in the vast world around us. We have made a resource available to thousands, and not all are paying students. We offer hundreds of scholarships each year. These scholarships must be supported as well. We offer financial aid to students in times of need with monetary support. We provide a place for spiritual growth and learning. We offer things an offline Circle and Coven would to its members. We have dedicated our lives to this work and will continue to do so.
My hope is that you will read this and perhaps find yourself holding a different opinion of what we are doing and how we are doing it. We seek to share, not to harm and most certainly not to scam. Thank you for your time and attention and I hope that you consider perhaps editing or removing the post you placed on your website after reading the information I have provided. If not, I appreciate the opportunity to share with your readers the reality of what we offer. I also wish you well on your own personal and chosen path, whatever it may be and wherever it may lead you.
Many blessings,
- Lady Raven
The last several years have seen a flood of these kinds of dubious enterprises. Anyone with web savvy, a good internet connection, and a bunch of books on their shelf can set themselves up in business as Wiccan or Pagan School.
Sacred Mists is an interesting phenomenon. I remember reading about it a few years back on some egroup or other, and if memory serves me, Sacred Mists showed up on the scene in early 2002 when Lady Raven took over the College of the Crystal Waterfall from its owner, Lady Moonwillow. (a.k.a.Crystal Wheeler).
The problem was that Crystal Waterfall College had major issues, I seem to recall that most of its curriculum, including its Herbal Course, had been lifted pretty much wholesale from various sites all over the internet. So the owner was selling stolen goods - things that could be found for free in other places online.
I have no idea what Sacred Mist is teaching at the moment but its course outline (as shown on the Working Witches website) is pretty much identical to what it was in the beginning – that is, the same outline used by Crystal Waterfall – and this includes the Herbalism Course as well as the First Degree Wicca program.
To see the similarities, check the Working Witches website page with course details, and compare it to this archived page
http://web.archive.org/web/20001002135232/crystalwaterfall.com/coursedetails.htm
Very close to identical…. Now is the content the same as it was when it was Crystal Waterfall? I don’t know, but it’s strange that the names of the lessons are the same.
As far as the 10 person/40 hr per week staff, well, that’s kind of a catch-22, isn’t it? If Raven wasn’t actively peddling her For Profit school, advertising like crazy and drawing in students, she wouldn’t need the staff, would she? So yes, of course this is a business for her. It’s about making money. And between that and her online store, I’ll bet she is…….Do the math.
The internet has made it very easy for petty crooks to get away with fraud and wholesale plagiarism. They pillage websites for information, create their own courses by posting the pilllaged stuff to their own pages, which they then password to keep out anyone but paying customers. They claim copyright on their lessons, and make their customers/students promise to keep the lessons secret from people not enrolled…. .and so it goes. Pretty clever, eh?
I’m not really accusing Sacred Mists of this because I don’t know for certain. But I’ve seen others. The information in the lessons of such online schools may well be wonderful, inspiring, enlightening, and useful; but original to the “seller” they are not.
I agree wholeheartedly with Juvenal. Unfortunately, I wanted a piece of paper to really prove that I had some training in Wicca to offset the many charlatans around. Ms. Raven and Co. do recommend a year and a day for the training. But, just as Juvenal says, she adds more and more work to do, making it impossible to finish the program in the the allocated time and thusly making your “stay” there longer and longer. Many of her “worker-bees” do all the teaching and correcting of papers. They have no training whatsoever, not even in the use of spell-check. Quite a few have alredy left as they were totally burned out by overwork. I will tell some of them of this blog and maybe we can hear more of what they say.
You are encouraged GREATLY to buy from the shoppe as a student. AS a matter of fact, it is highlighted and quizzed upon in Lesson #1, as if, #1 Actung! BUY FROM THIS SHOPPE OR ELSE!! The money is collected up front, and sometimes the items take months to arrive and when I reminded Ms Raven that this is not the standard in the community of internet vendors (is is typical to order the item, have it sent and the moment it is sent, charge your credit card), she seemed uncaring and said merely “Oh Well.” I had purchased over $300 worth of items, and did not receive them for 2 months, tying up my money for all that time. Ms. Raven is extremely pushy when it comes to the students having to purchase purchase items only from her “shoppe” claiming it helps the Sacred Mist cause even though she pays her “teachers” nothing and operates Sacred Mists probably very cheaply at the MSN FREE sites. I bought a wand directly from Abby Willowroot herself and it was half the price than the one at “the shoppe” was. Also, she allows no returns, only in house exchanges. I ordered a magazine from her, costing about $6.00. She said it was no longer available. So, I never could find anything at that price in her Shoppe and by this time, I was totally disgusted and just wanted nothing more to do with her and “Sacred Mists.”
Not to worry though, as MSN is going to take out all of the “Groups” chat rooms, where she hold her Sabbats and Esbats, so, hmmm…..perhaps her own karma is coming back to her. The law of 3 times 3 always prevails.
Myself and some of my ex-SM friends call it Sado-Masochists instead of Sacred Mists and even though this is said in jest, many of the students are very young and are easily conned. I think places like this give a bad name for Wicca and also cause emotional harm and turmoil to trusting young souls.
You are absolutely correct Juvenal and I applaud you for picking up that this woman is after money, only, and cares very little about the Wiccan cause. I wish I had been more in tune with the whole scene and I could have avoided the loss of about $200.
Morgaine
PS to Shauni, I am sure you are very nice, but you best take off your rose colored glasses.
I’ve always been offended by her basic premise that one could ‘earn’ their three wiccan degrees through her school, AS IF they were like college degrees wherein coursework must be completed and exams passed before the piece of paper is issued. NOT. And who gave HER the authority to offer such degrees anyway? What crap.
I’m one of the few who actually was thrown out of Sacred Mists after my husband who obtained his 4th degree many years ago with a local coven that no longer exists, had a disagreement with Lady Raven. We too have a problem with covens that charge. I can’t say I regret the time I spent there, because I did meet some very wonderful people whom I remain friends with to this day. But if Lady Raven has walked the Pantacle and been officially ordained as an AHPs in a coven then it would be nice for her to submit that information to the public so they know what order she studied under and is teaching.
2 problems I had when studying at Sacred Mists were…
1. There was little reference to God and when he was mentioned he HAD to be AFTER the Goddess. There was no discussion on this, per Lady Raven.
2. Whenever we took from Mother Earth, Lady Raven never gave Thanks. She actually stated she pitied us who always did.
I wish I had been given the chance to say Good Bye as I had been planing to leave after I fulfilled promises I had made. But I also have to admit Lady Raven did me a huge favor when she threw me out.
Bright Blessings,
Lilly
PS: While you are checking out Unscrupulus Pagans you need to take a look at these 2 Schools. http://mstikalseasons.net/ http://mstikalseasons.net/index-school.html and now she plans to open a school to teach children from the ages of 8 to 12 here http://mrsmugworts.mstikalseasons.net/ and charging their parents $20 a month to do so.
Please note the similarity in course outline and wording of statement between the old Crystal Waterfall Herbalism Course and $acred Mist$ Herbalism Course:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010618083819/crystalwaterfall.com/herbalist/
http://www.workingwitches.com/herbal/index.html
Looks like the same package of goods is being peddled; goods taken from various websites, bundled together and sold as new. Caveat Emptor!
Merry Meet All ~
Yes, I was one of the unfortunate few to be thrown out of Sacred Mists, as it’s Lady Raven’s way, or the highway. So, when Lady Raven says her school is “eclectic”, she needs to open a dictonary and look up the meaning of the word. I have been on my path for over 32 years now… almost a lifetime of devotion to learning the ways of the craft and the Pagan world. One thing I have learned over and over again, is you NEVER charge for magickal lessons, as the information contained within them, comes from the Lord and Lady. The Lord and Lady are immanent, all knowing, all seeing, loving and caring, as they share the knowledge of the earth, heavens, universal energy and spirit world with us and the magick that we create from these realms. This is given to us… FREELY!… with love and devotion from the Devine source. So who are we to charge a fee to pass on this knowledge that has been instilled in us to fledglings? We do not have that right, nor power to do so. If one chooses to use an office, staff, etc., then that person is responsible for that maintenace, not the students. However, should a student willingly, and of their own free will give a donation in the form of money, candles, incense, etc., that is totally acceptable, and should be graciously taken with many thanks. Thanks not only to the giver, but to the Lord and Lady themselves!
I come from the Coven of The Shining Tree, which unfortunately is now disbanded, as people have went their own ways for family, jobs, school, etc. This is where I attained the level of Arch High Priest in the Celtic Gwyndonnic Tradition during my 16 year tenure. It wasn’t an easy path to say the least, but with hard work, meditation and plenty of magickal working with the Lord and Lady I arose to my current level. I now devote my time to teaching and still maintain a spirit investigation group. All of which I never charge a dime for services rendered! I am currently starting work on becoming licensed clergy in my state, so I may render government sanctioned assistance to those of the Pagan Community that are in need. I started out learning the ways from my grandmother, who in all rights was a witch herself. Growing and harvesting herbs, magickal cures, spellwork, and all the fine aspects of what is right and wrong in what I did in the magickal world. I loved hearing the translations from her mother’s, and before that grandmother’s, Books of Shadows, which were written mostly in Gaelic. Ancient remedies, spellwork, herbal cures, potions, on and on. I will have to say my mother wasn’t too happy, but we spent most of our time with grandma, so it was a trade off to Mom. I will say, as children, my mother still made us go to the local Methodist Church, sing in the choir, etc., so I grew to know the differences between the Christian and Pagan worlds and stuck with the Pagan world. I can remember one time the minister at the church saw, while we were changing our into our choir robes, the pentagram pendant my grandmother had given me. He didn’t go ballistic, but just asked if I knew the difference. I was ten at the time and replied “Yes Sir, the Christians stole Paganism”. Talk about out of the mouths of babes! He never got miffed, just wanted to know if I knew the difference. He smiled and walked away, and I never heard about it again.
In so far as taking information from other Pagan internet sources, it should be done in the form of research. Everyone remembers high school english class, and what bibliographies, and footnotes are. You read from the author, gleen the information, then put what you have gleened into your own words and actions. However, if one desires, and just has to use the author’s exact words… then ask! If the author agrees, give them ample credit for the information in your writing. In so far as the Pagan Community is concerned, there are things that are stated the same way everytime, such as the Wiccan Rede or the Rule of Three, etc. That you can’t get away from copying word for word. Spellwork and magick is something that comes from the heart, mind and spirit of the individual, and is interpretive to the individual creator. We are not “cookie stamped” like Christianity. But in Sacred Mists you must be “Lady Raven stamped” for approval. No discussion, no interpretation, no individual thought, it’s Lady Raven’s way, or the highway.
What kerridwyn, Morgaine SilverOak and Lilly Skye Dancing Wolfe have said is absolutely true. I will stand by the sacred altar and swear this truth in the name of the Lord and Lady. However, I wish Lady Raven and Sacred Mists no ill will, nor harm.
I can relate something I was given about me, so I’m not breaking any vows of silence in the craft. My forte, so to speak, is spirit communications. I am very well versed in this aspect and good at what I do with the spirit world. While at Sacred Mists I was asked to join a group that dealt with speaking acros the divide, or parting the veil if you will. While in that group I served to communicate with spirit entities that others were having trouble with. Now this is not meant for the faint hearted in the least, but one person was claimed to have been frightened by the entity in their home and how I dealt with it. Now mind you, this was outside of the school, as a matter of fact the student and I were on Yahoo messenger at the time. As anyone knows, or should know, once a conversation is ended on Yahoo or MSN messengers, you can still scroll back up to the beginning and block copy everything that was said and save it in a word processor. When I do spirit work with others, it is to remain between myself and the particular person, however, this was apparently block copied and sent to Lady Raven and her Student Council, which is a violation of confidence.
After I had been ejected from Sacred Mists, I received a copy of the minutes of a meeting, which directly involved a discussion about me and my ejection. From what is stated in this, it was nothing but ill tempered, two-faced, lying. One person even made the suggestion of binding me! How childish! They even worked themselves up to the frenzied point of performing a Cone of Protection Ritual against me! Yes, Lady Raven led the whole thing. Now I ask you, is this the true mark of a High Priestess and what she must stand for? I think not. First, quite alot of the information came from a discussion she and I had via phone, as High Priestess and student, which is a violation of the vow of silence and confidence. Second, actually leading a “degrading and demoralizing someone session”, AFTER you’ve ejected them from your school is never the mark of a High Priestess, not to mention a leader in the Pagan Community. But again, I state facts, not breaking any vows of silence, nor breaking confidences, and wish Lady Raven, nor anyone at the meeting, no ill will.
Now the store… what Morgaine says is true. It does take forever to receive your items. Once I’d made an order, and upon receiving it, noticed they had made a clerical error in sending me four extra of a particular item. Apparently the item came from the vendor boxed in a set of five, and the shipping person that physically filled my order, just grabbed the box off the shelf and threw it in with my order, not realizing they should have opened the box and took out just one of the item I’d ordered. I called the shoppe to advise them of their error, and inquired of the process in returning the four extras they’d sent me. No self addressed, stamped label ever came. I actually paid the US Post Office, from my own pocket, to return that which wasn’t rightfully mine. I never got a thank you, store credit, or anything…. not that I was looking for it, but that it’s just plain courteous to say thank you when someone does you a favor. I won’t even get into the T-Shirt boon-doggle!
Mentioning thank you, Lilly is correct when says Lady Raven said she pitied those that said thank you everytime they took something from nature. It’s a long standing belief in the Pagan world you say thank you for EVERYTHING you take from nature. From an individual blade of grass to a limb from a tree and everything in between, does not belong to you, but to nature, and thus the Lord and Lady. You ask, get permission, take then give thanks for what was granted you. We do not own nature, it owns us, as we are an integral part of the whole. I always carry a small cloth bag of tobacco, and leave a pinch as a thank you gift, along with my grateful thanksgiving when I am granted permission to take something from nature. I have the saying “What is given you by nature, leave nature as thanksgiving in return and be grateful for your life’s path”. Needless to say, I was appalled to hear the words “I pity those that say thank you everytime they take something from nature” from a High Priestess!
One other thing everyone must be aware of… when you join a MSN Group and post pictures or create a picture album on a site, it takes up space in your free 3MB of MSN storage you get. If you get ejected from a group, and they do not delete your album and any posts with pictures, you’re plain screwed, as those pictures are still sitting there, taking up space in your free MSN storage! That’s a problem MSN needs to address across the board. You should have access to any stored files, on any site in your MSN account, and have the right to delete them as you see fit, whether you are sill a memeber or not. After all, they are your pictures and files… ie, your property. It took months, before I finally found someone still in Sacred Mists, with manager/leadership abilities, to delete my picture album. I won’t mention their name, but if that person reads this blog, thank you so very much again for deleting my album!
In summary, and as Juvenall Wilson and kerridwyn have said ~ Caveat Emptor! Check out the school, do research on it’s ratings, and above all… ASK QUESTIONS! After all, it’s your life’s path you’re putting on the line. You want to make sure you pick the school that’s right for you and have the books to back up and verify the knowledge. Another way is to find a local Pagan/Wiccan group or coven in your community. They are most willing to extend you an invitation to be an inquisitor. Attend some meetings, ask questions of the members/covenors about good internet sites. They’re not going to bite you, and will be happy to point you in the right direction. Finally, follow your heart, mind and spirit. Meditate and ask the Lord and Lady if this or that is correct. The answers you seek are but a question away!
Brightest Blessings to All!
Lord AmethystGeode
Well hello Geode! Hello Lily! How’s it going with your new school? It wasn’t free before, have you changed that?
You post: “The Lord and Lady are immanent, all knowing, all seeing, loving and caring, as they share the knowledge of the earth, heavens, universal energy and spirit world with us and the magick that we create from these realms. This is given to us… FREELY!… with love and devotion from the Devine source. So who are we to charge a fee to pass on this knowledge that has been instilled in us to fledglings? We do not have that right, nor power to do so. If one chooses to use an office, staff, etc., then that person is responsible for that maintenace, not the students. However, should a student willingly, and of their own free will give a donation in the form of money, candles, incense, etc., that is totally acceptable, and should be graciously taken with many thanks. Thanks not only to the giver, but to the Lord and Lady themselves!”
But the last time I checked Geode, your school not only charged a tuition fee, but also had it’s own shop of things for purchase, and you had set it up in the same manner as Sacred Mists. They say that copying is the sincerest form of flattery, so for that I thank you.
As for your and Lily’s accusation that Lady Raven laughs at those who give thanks when taking something from the Earth. What utter hogwash! I am so sorry those who did not have a good experience at Sacred Mists carry such negative energy in their hearts, and I send healing to your higher self should you choose to accept it. In the meantime, remember that you get out what you put in to things, and over 2,000 students are still studying and progressing on their paths with Sacred Mists. I too invite anyone who is interested to research our college and decide for themselves.
Brightest blessings,
Shauni Waterdragon
Priestess of the Sacred Mists
Wow! I have just stumbled onto this site and I am truly ashamed of my pagan brothers and sisters who have bantered back and forth in this blog! It is not bad enough that our faith and people have endured centuries of tortue, death, and discrimination, but you all have to put in-fighting on the internet to fuel the flames!
Just so you all know where I am coming from, I am a nine year solitary Wiccan in search of a more formal religious education, and have decided that it is time for me to become more involved in my faith based community. I have nothing to do with the Sacred Mists or the owner of this blog. I do however see the two sides of the this coin.
First of all, as an almost 30 year old woman, with two associate degrees, I am looking for a formal place to obtain my religious education. I have spent nine years doing my own research, and I feel like they have been nine years of flounders through books and miscellanious classes-learning on my own and never even knowing if I am even pronouncing diety names correctly. It is important to me (as is with the rest of my generation) that I have a solid foundation in my studies, which is usually obtained through formal learning ie. college or university. I yearn for this experience. I need to know who is legite and who is a fraud. With the internet these days…you just don’t know.
Having said that, you can not knock people for trying to formalize our structure a little bit. We don’t have any place to find legitimacy- and that includes Witchvox. Witchvox is a resource…a magazine, a news channel, a newspaper on the internet. A place for witches to meet and form community. It is not the American Council of Witches, a national council of elders, etc. No one has the authority to grant the rights to teach “en-mass”, or speak for our community, or even contribute to the world in the name of our faith. Now, don’t get me wrong, we do not want to turn into the catholic church. Part of the beauty of Pagan religions is that we, as believers, do not have to follow any set doctorine or formal structure. But don’t forget the Burning Times, where we were nearly wiped out, along with our faith. Most of our religion was lost with those who perished or went into hiding. Now for the rest of eternity so much is lost to us.
Witches need to come together as a whole. We can become a structured religion and reap the benifits without loosing site of the important things like “no one is better than anyone else because of position,” like “Witches are so diverse that no one Witch worships the same way,” like “we love our local and not so local communities and our earth, and strive not just as individuals but also as a faith-based community to give back to the community and mother earth.” You have all lost site of what is really important here.
Sacred Mists in an online university that offers a formal education to witches across the globe. Maybe they don’t do it the best way (which is always up for debate by the way) but at least they are trying to do something. And maybe Lady Raven is making a profit. Maybe she isn’t. The Gods empower us to provide for ourselves in anyway we see fit so long as it harms none. Who are you to say she can not provide for her family and employees while also providing a service to our pagan community. She is employing people, providing scholarships, providing knowledge, and fufilling a need. In the business world, that is good business and the best way to make that business grow. Besides, $20 a month?? Are you kidding me? Do you know what an education costs today?
And what about this arguement that she can’t make money off of our religion? Every supply shop, internet service, and psychic (that charges) is making money off of the faith. At least these people are doing something they enjoy and something worthy. Give me a break! Its not like they are running a Fortune 500 company.
Now for the other side of the coin. To the Coven of the Sacred Mists-you had better not be cheating people. I saw the links and read the testimonials. I have to say they are very convincing. In business these things can destroy your reputation and your college (just like bad apples). In the Wiccan community, it can bring alot of really bad karma and magic your way. I sincerely hope that you are not like some covens that are ultra exclusive and snotty. I hope you are not telling people that they have to buy ANYTHING to practice thier faith because we all know that making your supplies works just as well if not better. Also, I realize that your school is based on the beliefs of your coven, but I hope your are not like other religions that teach thier way as the only right way to believe and practice.
In conclusion I would like to say that the Wiccan training system is very different than that of a traditional college. The leangth of training and the types of degrees are different for each tradition.
Please open your eyes and do not be narrow minded. People read your information everyday and look up to all of you for advice and knowledge. Do not waste these gifts and use them for the right reasons. Healthy debate is always good, but not when it is so negative. May the Gods bless you all with the heart to direct your energies toward coming together instead of moving apart.
Many Blessings
Brandi
Merry meet Brandi!
I appreciate your insight and will take heed of your words. Rather than continue this line of discussion I will instead invite you, if you desire, to email me personally for more information regarding Sacred Mists. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you might have as honestly as I can. You might also want to check http://www.witchvox.com website in the near future for a very exciting event offered by Sacred Mists in December of 2006 that will be available to Sacred Mists Students AND visitors! It’s all very hush-hush right now but the Press Release will be going out in the next week!
Brightest blessings,
Shauni Waterdragon
Priestess of the Sacred Mists
shauni@workingwitches.com
Dear Brandi,
I appreciated reading your very fair-minded letter on the subject of Sacred Mists. However, as someone who’s been a practicing witch for over 30 years, probably before some of you were born, there are a few things that I must bring up.
The first thing is the totally artificial scenario of Wiccan/Pagan colleges or universities. The second, and closely second thing, is the incredibly strange assumption that Wiccan degrees can be ‘earned’ through such ‘colleges’ — as if such degrees were about passing exams, completing term papers and the like.
This is nonsense.
To address the first issue, these so called colleges are an extremely recent phenomena, having grown up in just the last 7-8 years. Anyone with computer/internet expertise, a pile of books, and a good scanner can put up such a college, with lessons scanned from books or taken from other websites. Many of these so-called Wiccan colleges are comprised of just that. The teachers may or may not have any more real life learning or experience than the students they teach. The teachers may or may not have any real life credentials to teach or initiate. Basically, they can say anything they want and there’s no way to check the veracity of their statements. Let the buyer beware.
Wicca is an experiential religion. Traditionally, it has been passed down within small groups, utilizing in-person meetings, classes, trainings, ceremonies, and exercises. The teacher was physically present to monitor the mental, emotional, and psychic states of the student, and ascertain progress or problems, and thus offer guidance. The student was being constantly evaluated by means having nothing to do with book-learning and tests. To think that this can be done over the internet is ridiculous. Book learning is just book learning. And, as I said before, the Craft is an experiential religion. It’s about learning to travel the inner worlds, and to feel and work with energies and innerworld beings. It’s not about how many books or lessons you’ve read or written tests you’ve passed or goddesses you can name or cute little ‘formal’ certificates and titles you’ve acquired.
Degrees and certificates offered by these schools are meaningless, useless. These schools exist to make money off their students. Period.
My teachers (and many other teachers of that era) spent untold hours of their own time studying, preparing for training sessions, teaching, monitoring, and helping students — all without any demands whatsoever for financial compensation. They did it as a labor of love, and so the Craft would live on. To see what was once done from such a loving and spiritual place being turned into a financial endeavor sickens me.
To address the second issue, the ‘degrees’ are earned in the inner worlds, and ‘marked’ in the outer worlds. An experienced HP or HPS will be able to make a good guess at when the student is ready to undergo the physical ceremony of initiation, that either ‘marks’ an inner initiation or sparks it into being in a student who is ready. Often lines of power and/or lineages are passed from teacher to student in such ceremonies. To think that degrees are about passing exams based on ‘book learning’ or written lessons is ludicrous, and an insult to the real thing.
Now, that being said, I see nothing wrong with it if someone finds an interesting online course they wish to take to expand their knowledge base. But don’t confuse that with becoming a witch or receiving an initiation. They are very different things.
Practicing perfect love and perfect trust doesn’t mean being a gullible idiot who believes every love’n’peace/whitelight/wiccan rede spouter who comes along claiming they are an arch-high priest or priestess.
Best,
Kerridwyn
I am very glad to see responses from some of you. It is indeed unfortunate that the owner of this blog chose not to respond. No matter. I have only one question. If learning via the internet is not an acceptable form (which is apparently a matter of opinion) and is at best equivalent to book-learning, what should someone do if they don’t have a teacher and can not find one within a 60 mile radius?
One last comment about the degrees. You are right. When it comes to being a witch, degrees and certificates do not matter. The information you learned to earn that piece of paper can only enhance your knowledge of the subject matter. Being a Witch takes so much more than reading a book could ever provide, but it’s a start.
Many Blessings,
Brandi
Hi Brandi,
Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot that can be learned from books and even from online classes. Book learning has its place, as does working on one’s own using good books as a guide. As far as the 60 mile radius thing, I drove about 40 miles each way for classes with my first teachers, and later, drove 65 miles each way for weekly coven work. It’s all in what you want to do, how badly you want to do it, and what you can arrange in your life.
And also, there is validity to the old saying, “When the student is ready the teacher will appear.”
Blessings,
Kerridwyn
Let’s be clear here; there is nothing wrong with learning online. My issue, and the point of the post I made, is that charging for classes or “certification” amounts to a scam. You are paying for an unlicensed, unqualified and unverifiable “school” with a completely arbitrary system to each you things of a highly subjective nature. Even worse, there is little to no information about this small, isolated sect the school practices. So you don’t know if they practice the same things you believe in, do something you disagree with or sacrifice baby ninjas to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The only way to get this information is to pay. To me, that’s the scam. Using the word “degree” or even “certification” insinuates a status that frankly isn’t there. Hell, do they even have a business license? Some states even require special certifications just to call yourself a school. So it’s completely possible they’re operating illegally.
With respect to earlier comments regarding a shop being comparable to this, that’s simply wrong. Aside from the standard utilities, the shop has property insurance, liability insurance, business licenses and inventory overhead to contend with. Each item they sell takes money directly out of their pocket. So a charge for a physical item is fine, more so when it’s completely optional (and yes, everything is optional). The line here is drawn when it comes to information. If a shop sells you a wand and says “Pay me $20 and I’ll tell you how to use it”, would you think that’s fair? How do you know the guy really knows what he’s talking about?
Now, if you are really intrested in learning online, there are thousands upon thousands of resources at your disposal. Everything from chat rooms and bulletin boards to blogs and wikis. For every crooked pagan trying to take advantage of you, there are a thousand willing to teach you for free. Google is your best friend here.
Again, because it’s important to stress, you should never have to pay anyone to grow spiritually. If you want to donate money to someone willing to help you, that’s fantastic. However, anyone who demands payment is out for the money. So if you’re looking for a good starting point to grow your understanding or even find someone to take you under their wing, check out http://www.paganforum.com. It’s a great, totally free community of pagans all willing to help you in any way they can.
Well said, Mr Wilson, and thanks for the link.
Kerridwyn
Just a curious bystander… what do you make of this?
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Registration Contact:
Sacred Mists Wiccan College
seminars.WorkingWitches.com
http://www.workingwitches.com
seminars@workingwitches.com
JANET FARRAR AND GAVIN BONE PARTNER WITH SACRED MISTS ONLINE WICCAN COLLEGE
Offering Virtual Witchcraft Seminars Education to the World
November 13, 2006 — Sacred Mists, a leader in online Wiccan and Witchcraft education, has formed an exclusive partnership with Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, experts in the field of Witchcraft and the Occult, to bring you online, virtual seminars for Witches around the globe.
Through this exciting new partnership, Pagans everywhere are now provided the opportunity to attend the seminars offered by Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone from anywhere in the world. Attending their seminars was an opportunity that previously had been limited only to those who were able to attend their in-person speaking engagements.
Janet Farrar, along with her now-deceased husband Stewart, has been writing, speaking, and teaching on subjects of Witchcraft and the Occult since 1971. Gavin Bone joined them in 1993, and has since worked with them on numerous publications such as The Pagan Path, The Healing Craft, The Complete Dictionary of European Gods and Goddesses and their most recent publication, Progressive Witchcraft. To date they have written eleven books and have been published in the United States and Britain and as far as Brazil, Japan, and the Czech Republic. Collectively, they have over 50 years of experience with Witchcraft, Paganism and the Occult.
Long ago realizing the need for accessible, safe and reputable training, Lady Raven Moonshadow, Arch High Priestess of the Sacred Mists Tradition since 1996, introduced her vision for providing distance education to the online Wiccan community. She continues to be a leader in this venue by once again bringing high quality, never before offered online learning opportunities to the Pagan world.
The first virtual seminar to be presented on December 10th of 2006 carries the same title and concepts as Janet and Gavin’s latest publication, Progressive Witchcraft. Copies of the book are available at Sacred Mists Shoppe (www.SacredMists.com). The next scheduled date is January 7th of 2007, when Janet and Gavin will present “The Group Mind: It’s Creation within a Coven Structure”. The third scheduled seminar will be held on January 28th of 2007, when they will present “Wiccan Cosmology: Connecting with Spirit Guides”. Each of these unique, four-hour virtual seminars will be held in Sacred Mists secure, online seminar venue and seating is extremely limited. Early registration is highly recommended and is now being accepted for all available dates through January of 2007.
Future dates to be announced at seminars.workingwitches.com.
For more information visit:
http://www.WorkingWitches.com
http://www.wicca.utvinternet.com
Or Contact:
seminars@workingwitches.com
Well, here’s what I make of it.
1) Score one for Lady Raven for making a good business deal. And her students will certainly benefit from such good teachers.
2) There is no such thing as an Arch High Priestess. Anyone who knows anything about the history of the Craft knows that. For her to refer to herself as such is, to old timers, like sending up a big red flare that says “phoney.”
3) Sacred Mists didn’t exist in 1996; it came into being in early 2002 with the demise of the College of the Crystal Waterfall, and Raven’s takeover/makeover of that venture.
Interesting discussion! I agree on some points and not on others, but everyone is certainly allowed their own opinion. I am the High Priestess of the physical coven of Grandmother Toad’s Circle of the Magickal Myst, located in San Diego California. There are most certainly many offerings both online and off that do not measure up to what we would perceive as the high standards that teaching should be held to; that is going to happen because Wicca is not regulated nor will it ever be. Caveat Emptor is the order of the day! That being said, it is my opinion that the fact that Janet Farrar (The Witches Bible) is partnering with Lady Raven Moonshadow in this venture brings much credibility to Lady Raven’s school. After all, Janet must know about such things as Wiccan titles and I assume she checked out Sacred Mists before the deal was struck. If she does not have a problem with the way Lady Raven is doing business, that carries a lot of weight with me. I have all of Janet Farrar’s books and use them in my teachings in Grandmother Toad’s. Since these seminars are open to the public (I also saw the announcement post made by Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone on Witchvox a few days ago) I personally would not miss this opportunity to meet Janet Farrar! It’s sorta like getting the opportunity to study with Gerald Gardner, if you could go back in time
On the debate regarding the validity or necessity of degrees, our coven also follows this practice. I would like to submit the following that I did not write, but may clear up a few misconceptions regarding the merit of the degree system in Wicca:
Degree System
One cannot simply explain the deep mysteries that you would experience within Wicca; therefore, our rituals have always been enacted in full, as handed down through our traditional heritage, so that you would actually live the experience in your own way, which is invoked and activated by effective ritual.
As in anything deeply mystical or magickal, the meaning cannot be simply communicated intellectually; it has to work through an analogous process within the individual; a stream of symbols, images and experiences, rather than a mere explanation.
Wiccans today are priestesses and priests, initiates to the Ancient Powers and are never laity. They are secretive in their undertakings and do not proselytize, or spend constant hours merely talking about it. The basic message is that, what is fundamental to Wicca is the actual doing of it and no amount of theorising and intellectualisation can substitute for the actual experience.
Magick and Witchcraft is always looked at as being “rather different” to say the least and has in fact being persecuted throughout history. Therefore, most witches and occultists keep to the ancient tradition of “Keeping Absolute Secret”. Witchcraft has no dogma. It has no “you must believe this” rules and is completely free in one’s inner beliefs and practices. In fact, in groups, ‘like-minded’ people get together and form the covens and that coven is made up of either close friends, or strangers come together in a strong symbiosis of core understanding, who adapt and adopt their own working way, (as long as the basic handed down ancient rituals and initiations are followed closely).
You probably feel that you want the proper guidance and training from an experienced Wiccan, you would be right in holding that belief. There are so many self-made “experts” nowadays and I sigh with wonder where they get their profound expertise and knowledge from. The books nowadays are repetitive in content and have strayed so far from the foundation of Wicca and especially Traditional Craft, it is hardly recognizable, but these sort of books sell to the younger group, who think it is the true thing.
This sort of teaching can only really come from a “teacher”, or “tutor”, called a Mentor, as you become the “Dedicant” in the first steps and the teaching is handed down accordingly, as it has been for generations. It was the way I first learnt and have since taught many over the years. You definitely cannot and will not get the “real thing” from even the better books. They can only hint at the ways and cannot fully explain the unexplainable. It has to be “realized” from within, felt deeply rather than merely read. It is a wonderful “inner journey”, (or microcosm), otherworlds and mixing with the macrocosm and “what’s out there”, and will probably change your life – for the better.
Wiccans today are priestesses and priests, initiates to the Ancient Powers and are never laity. They are secretive in their undertakings and do not proselytize, or spend constant hours, days and months simply and merely talking about it on the net, or in little groups, when invariably no one is properly qualified to discuss the subject in full anyway, and unless they are initiated into a properly seeded coven, it can only be mere supposition on their part anyway. It is a personal and very much a “participant doing” activity and is of course, a way of life. Wicca is “doing” ritual, “doing” inner workings, “doing” magick, “doing” spiritual ceremonies and “following actively” the wheel of the year. It is “not” a talkers religion, it is a “doers” way of life.
To quote a new book recently published, “Unless a witch is willing to take initiation when the “magick calls”, and to “actively”, “consciously”, and with free will, “walk across the line” to live IN the world, but not OF it, and to take the oaths of a priestess or priest, then the line is not crossed. The power will withdraw because it knows the witch is not yet ready. ‘Some other time!’ it seems to say.” There will always be the talkers and the doers in anything in life, but who really gains the real insight and satisfaction of doing, rather than merely copying and reciting someone else’s experiences, perceptions and views. Think about it – it can’t be done!
The basic message is that, what is fundamental to Wicca is the actual doing of it and no amount of theorising and intellectualisation can substitute for the actual experience.
The beauty of Wicca, is that it allows and promotes the inner journey to its fullest by way of ritual and magickal workings in a way of living for the moment. So many people are driven relentlessly to a goal or nebulous tomorrow, (and there’s nothing wrong with having attainable goals in which hard work will ultimately realize), but most people are forgetting that it is often the journey that really counts and is all we’ve actually got, at the present. Living within the arms of Mother Nature is indeed a wonderful way and there’s so many things that we don’t, and probably never can, fully comprehend, but in a personal journey; you may “feel it” deeply within yourself.
If you are not yet initiated into any Craft as yet and you are actually seriously thinking following the “Wicca” ways, (whether in a group – or as a singleton, but nevertheless apart of an official coven), there are a few things you have to know and do first. I don’t know how many books you have read on Wicca, but most Wicca is quite formal in many of its ways (where other ways are free to grow and change), but you have to first begin to learn the “correct ways” in a form of standardized learning, BEFORE you can be advance or ultimately initiated.
However, in saying that, it does not mean that the doors are flung wide open to accept anyone who comes a’knocking. There are strict guidelines and steps to follow and ultimately, it is the various Coven’s own process’ and discussion, that either allows, or does not allow, a seeker to enter.
Many British Traditional Wicca and other traditions that share the same principles mostly have a system of three degrees of Initiation, while others like the Ordo Anno Mundi have seven degrees.
It is both significant and relevant to point out here that Seax Wicca does not have any degree system at all and no oath of secrecy, and to further alleviate any possibility of the abuse of power, the priesthood is chosen democratically by the coven members. In this Saxon based tradition, non-initiates, or cowans, are referred to as Theows (pronounced thoe) and are permitted to attend ritual meetings by invitation and would spend time with the other members of the Coven learning all they could before they were ready for their intuition. A neophyte training to enter a coven is known as a Ceorl (pronounced cawl), and once initiated becomes a Gesith. As there is no degree structure for further advancement, all Saxon Wiccans are therefore known as Gesiths. Once Gesith has been attained, he or she may break away and form a new coven, or start their own coven by doing a simple self-dedication rite before initiating others to join them.
However, to continue on with discussing other main stream Wicca that do follow a degree structure, initiation to the first degree is open to all Witches, governed by what is expressed below. However the second and third degree criteria are quite demanding, and essentially anyone who seeks and becomes 2nd or 3rd degree is responding to a deep inner calling.
Higher degrees aren’t about levels of magickal prowess, power or learning, although that goes with the turf, but 2nd and 3rd degree Witches have people skills, management skills, communication and teaching skills as well as magickal skills.
Those who aren’t well balanced emotionally, psychologically and socially; and who don’t have the appropriate skills; wouldn’t be able to successfully lead a Coven, nor would they be able to fulfill all the requirements that would be needed of them as a dedicated Mentor.
One of the greatest problems that some Covens suffer from is that of having inexperienced or ‘unqualified’ people in leading positions. Knowing all the rituals off by heart and having a dominant or charismatic personality does not alone make for a good High Priestess or High Priest and definitely not a good Mentor.
Because of this fact, Wiccans work within a strong but flexible training, development and assessment structure, and which then ensures that we do not unleash imbalanced, power hungry, exploitive or unstable people on to the community, who appear to have credibility because of their Initiatory degree status.
This superb teaching can only come about when the Dedicants are ready to learn and are taking Wicca seriously enough to devote not only their time, but their life to their chosen religion. It’s all about living Wicca, not learning it in a club like atmosphere.
This Wiccan degree system should provide a Dedicant with a basic but clear understanding of how and why certain things are carried out and how things work within the Craft. One should clearly see from this that the degree system therefore provides a framework of support, and a clearly defined structure to help the Dedicant along the Wiccan path.
For those who seek the Dedicant’s Degree and then later on wish initiation into the 1st degree; the degree system provides a rich source of knowledge and experience to draw from.
Having a suitable Mentor around you of experience and knowledge with ‘pickable brains’ makes life considerably easier and that fact can range from help in memorising chants and invocations to what’s the best wood to use for making a Wand.
As well as all that, a good Coven also provides a collective pool of skills for all members to draw from, ranging from herbal remedies to Tarot readings, to even such things as having access to a wide range of books and experiences shared from one’s Mentor.
If also you have an HPs and HP with experience and good people/life skills, then any conflicts and arguments between people can be quickly resolved without conflict, and you always have someone to turn to for advice and guidance in your life.
We set these criteria in Wicca to ensure that we work with people who truly do want to walk this path. After all Wicca is a path for those who want to walk it, and our question in regard to anyone who seeks to join our circle is very simply, “Would you do this even if you never met another Witch to do it with”?
Dedicant’s Degree
Is for those newly coming into the Craft. As you will see elsewhere in any information regarding Initiation, this brings the new Witch into the Coven, connects them with the Coven group-mind, connects them to the Inner Plane power sources which that Coven and Tradition works with, and Initiates- starts them on their path in a powerful and guided way.
It allows the new Dedicant to walk the path before committing to the first degree and to see if they like it or not and also for the Coven to see if they like the Dedicant and all can get along well together in perfect love and perfect trust. A symbiosis of sorts that goes extremely deep.
There are actually a number of approaches to this Dedicant’s Degree. Some Covens don’t even have a Dedicant’s Degree, but for those that do, some traditions take rather a “Bring ‘em in and let the Goddess sort them out” type of approach, by initiating people very quickly, and before they have gained much knowledge and experience of the Craft and it’s principles.
On the basis that they can and will learn all they need to know thereafter. Others; like the Gardnerian tradition, require that before anyone is initiated to the first degree, they must have gained at least some real knowledge and experience in Wiccan basics, such as chants, circle principles, simple energy work, Coven etiquette, etc. This is generally taken as being a year and a day. The Dedicant’s Degree maintains the required interest and gives the Aspirant a further goal on which to shoot for and while feeling apart of the Coven as a officially Initiated Dedicant and already walking the Wiccan path.
This way they can then learn much more in a shorter time, all the time training and learning with their Mentor of either 2nd or 3rd degree, which gives a much firmer basic foundation on which to continue.
The idea is that the Dedicant’s Degree welcomes the initiate into Wicca and then the First Degree confirms that initiation and commits the Dedicant into a fully-fledged Priest or Priestess.
First degree
Essential Skills for first Degree
This listing details the requirements that are expected of those who are entering the Craft. Many people first set out on the Wiccan path with much of the required principles already part of their lives, while others only have a basic grasp of these principles and practices and that is not what is so important actually. What is important is that they all strive to achieve those required skills and principles to the best of their ability at all times.
The usual period of training before First-Degree initiation is the traditional ‘year and a day’ as already said. We are often flexible in this, if a new candidate has already undergone training in another Coven which has disbanded, or if they’ve had to move away from another Coven, or if they have already developed good skills and resources from being a Dedicant already. It is then that the probationary period can be shortened appropriately.
It must be said here that a major reason why we have a probationary period is to give people sufficient time in which we can all truly get to know each other, no matter how magickally adept any person appears to be. For if they feel they are above such mundane chores as Temple cleaning, or running the occasional coven errand, or if they try dominating other Coveners, or make other consistent breaches of circle etiquette; then naturally we want to be able to ‘weed them out’ before they get in too deep.
The flowing precepts are generally accepted as being criteria for becoming a First Degree Witch.
* Knows and accepts the fundamental Laws and tenets of the Craft and is sincerely dedicated to walking the Wiccan Way in kinship with nature, other Beings of all planes, and all that is, in full awareness and acceptance of the principle of personal responsibility.
* Understands the Coven principles and basic circle etiquette, etc.,
* Has a rapport with the other Coveners (especially with their 2nd/3rd Degree Sponsor)
* Has gathered together the basic Witches tools of, consisting of Athame, Pentacle, Cauldron or Goblet, Wand and has already started a Book of Shadows and a personal Magickal Diary.
* Has learned the “Witches Rune”, and the basic Wiccan Laws.
* Has developed basic visualization skills.
* Can raise Power sufficiently to carry out basic spells and discharge it in total gnosis.
* Can “Ground and centre”. (That is, can gather and hold personal power and sense of connectedness within rituals in a reasonably balanced way), and can ‘still’ the mind to a quiet and focused level in meditation or Pathworking.
* Can enter the twilight - altered state of consciousness in which magic happens.
* Can sense true Power Flow (i.e. senses it if it is there) and is able to channel Power for magickal work (with guidance).
* Is acquainted with the Theory of the Elements, all basic Wiccan theories and principles, and can tap the elemental energies for such as consecrating working tools.
* Has participated in Wiccan rituals and experienced true group rapport.
The intent for first degree Wiccans is to demonstrate an understanding of, and commitment to, the Wiccan way of living, while having the basic skills to be able to participate in Circles rather than merely passively observing.
Second degree
Marks the beginning of a deeper path within the Craft, and thereby and therein acknowledges the commitment, work and effort that the 2nd degree candidate has made following their First-Degree initiation.
Many people never move beyond 1st degree, which is fine, but for those that do want to deepen their knowledge and extend their Craft skills, herbalism, incense making, practical magick, ritual and ceremony, and for those who wish to be much more actively involved in rituals, the running of the Coven and its circles, training and helping new initiates and candidates, and other more challenging areas; do aspire to become 2nd degree.
It must be stressed before we go any further that 2nd and 3rd degrees bring great responsibility. There is a saying that “Rank brings its privileges”, but within the Craft, that is changed to “Rank brings greater responsibilities”.
‘2nd degrees within most Covens are usually involved in mustering up the 1st degrees to get them more organized and more incovlved and stop them from cruising along too much. They are also very necessary in the delegation of necessary tasks to lower degrees, such as cleaning and setting up the temple, laying out of food and similar tasks, but that’s never an excuse for anyone ‘throwing their weight around’. Usually, everyone in the Coven, whatever their rank, pulls their weight (and more) and hardly ever does anyone have to “chase” anyone for anything.
Third degree
Is granted only to those of sufficient experience and knowledge, who are either in a working partnership together and are going to leave their parent Coven to form a new one, or for a small number of individuals who do not have a working Craft partner to form a new Coven with, and of course, who have been Initiates for sufficiently long that they are becoming Elders of the Craft.
This degree is mostly for those (usually couples) who are going to leave their parent coven to form a new one of their own. This process is known as ‘hiving-off’. It is also sometimes granted to those of long Craft experience, but who do not have a working partner of equal experience, and whom are therefore going to stay with their Coven as one of the “Elders”.
In order to receive this degree, candidates must be 2nd degrees of good rapport, good solid experience, and with the necessary people, organisational, social, magickal and ritual skills to be able to run a working Coven in a way that benefits, empowers and nourishes all members thereof.
Within that a broad criteria is that one is generally of sufficient age to have gained the necessary life experiences, remembering the very blatant fact that there is nothing more potentially disruptive of a Coven than having immature people leading it.
The expectant 3rd Degree must have good magickal and energy awareness skills so that they can feel what Coveners are doing with any energy they raise, and also that they can ‘carry’ and encourage those who may be lacking or lagging behind. That is the foundation and the basis for a very well grounded and powerful Coven.
These aren’t skills that are exclusive to those with any parenting experience either, and it also must be said that a few new HPs and HPSs’, with the support of their own HP and HPS can indeed develop the balance needed by sheer hard work until it all comes together finally.
For those who are not going to found covens themselves but who are developing into ‘Craft Elders’, the criteria are much the same, in that Craft Elders need to be fully able to step into the shoes of the HPs or HP on those occasions when they are needed, and to guide and assist the HP and HPS whenever and wherever possible, all without indulging in any petty ‘power-play’ or other egotistical games.
They must also be able to shoulder much of the counseling, advisory and teaching work that would otherwise fall entirely onto the HPs or HP.
The Initiatory “Tree”.
In the Craft there are indeed guidelines and rules as to who can initiate who.
In all circumstances a man must be initiated by a woman, and a woman by a man.
Except in very special circumstances, where a woman can initiate her daughter, or father a son to the First or Second Degree if there is no other woman or man of the appropriate degree to do so.
First degrees can only initiate others in specific circumstances, when…..
As a ’stand-in’ partner to a 2nd or 3rd degree, in an accepted ‘emergency’ situation. (Such as if there is no one of higher degree to do this at the time).
If a coven has ceased to meet and a first degree wishes to elevate a working partner or spouse so that they can work together.
In all circumstances, a first degree can only initiate to the first degree, or in the degree in which they are themselves. They should not be present in a higher degree initiation than their own degree, (as it will spoil their own when eventually taking it).
In all cases; excepting 2 above; any initiations performed by First -Degree Witches must be within an established Coven, and should be under the guidance and supervision of a third degree Witch.
Those of the second degree can initiate to the first and second degrees within a Coven; in accordance with the guidelines for first degrees. Except that a second degree Witch can temporarily take over the running of a Coven if the 3rd degree HPs or HP retires or leaves the Craft, and there is no third degree High Priestess or High Priest to do so.
In which case they should follow the guidelines as at 3 below.
Second degree Witches should only ‘hive-off’ or otherwise found new Covens under very exceptional circumstances, and should seek guidance and peer support from the HPs or HP of another Coven so that they can continue their training and development in a structured and supported way to the third degree. It really is important that only a 3rd Degree run a Coven.
If a first or second degree Witch leaves a Coven for negative reasons they do not have the authority to found a new Coven or initiate people in order to form a new Coven.
These guidelines and rules are not dogmatic or inflexible, and their sole purpose is to help the Craft grow and be strong with a similar and strong foundation to all Covens within Gardnerian Wicca.
If you are considering joining a Coven, would you want that Coven to be led by someone of little experience and with very low levels of expertise and Wiccan knowledge? Or would you prefer that to be with people of deep experience and high levels of expertise and wisdom? It’s really quite an easy question to answer….
~ Found on the internet
Brightest Blessings!
Grandmother Toad
Greetings Grandmother Toad!
Blessings,
The information and guidelines you posted ring true to what I know,and are quite good. I must respectfully disagree, however, that Janet & Gavin’s partnering with Sacred Mists implies anything positive about Sacred Mists. Residing in another country altogether, it’s quite possible they simply don’t know anything at all about SM or it’s owner or the history of the school, and were simply responding to a nice business offer SM made to them. I do respect Janet & Stewart’s body of work throughout the years, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with every choice Janet makes.
Kerridwyn
I will reserve judgment of this “partnership” until I hear more from those feeding me information from the inside. On the surface, however, this doesn’t exactly legitimize the rest of the business model here.
Though, I’m glad I’m not the only one who raised an eyebrow at her ever expanding title. So it’s now “Arch High Priestess”? When did Kim Jong Ill take over the school?
All of this has been quite fascinating. I would like to shed a bit of light on the subject at hand, as I was an insider from the very beginning.
First of all, “Lady Raven” calls herself an Arch High Priestess. When she took over the college from Crystal Waterfall, she had not even received her 1st Degree yet. What gave her the right to move herself up the ladder? Not only does she falsely claim to have achieved her Degrees, she also takes credit for bringing the college to the internet! In her press release on November 6th, she states:
“Long ago realizing the need for accessible, safe and reputable training, Lady Raven Moonshadow, Arch High Priestess of the Sacred Mists Tradition since 1996, introduced her vision for providing distance education to the online Wiccan community. She continues to be a leader in this venue by once again bringing high quality, never before offered online learning opportunities to the Pagan world. ”
Excuse me, but WHO introduced her vision for providing distance training to the Wiccan community? Certainly not Raven…it was her predecessor, Lady Moon Willow. And this is a “never before offered opportunity”? Please. How many other Witch Schools are there on the web? This is hardly an original idea.
Lady Moon Willow turned the school over to Raven because she could not give it the attention it needed and take care of her family at the same time. Raven promised her that she would turn it into something wonderful, so she believed her and gave it over lovingly. To say that Lady Moon Willow had “stolen” her courses and posted them for profit is entirely inaccurate. In fact, she was given the entire school on a CD Rom by a man called SnowWolf, who claimed to have written everything himself and wanted her to use it in an online college. It may have been discovered later that SnowWolf was not the original author of some of these things (I still don’t know that to this day), but Lady Moon Willow had no malicious intent or knowledge of such things.
I just wanted to give the other side of the coin, since I have intimate knowledge of what really happened. Not everyone tells the truth, and some people remain silent for far too long.
Hi all,
This is all quite fascinating. I was a student and at one time, one of those who corrected the lessons at Crystal Waterfall. I got complaints from the other students because I corrected so strictly and demanded very detailed explanations from them. I did not make the transition over to Sacred Mysts because of the financial burden it would have brought to my family.
I’ve used the knowledge that I gained through the CWF classes to teach students in my local community quite successfully. I was working on my third degree when Crystal Waterfall closed… but I have been able to teach and help others through the 1st and 2nd degrees in my local community.
Since then, I helped to found a local non-profit pagan community organization, I’m the treasurer of our local Pagan Pride Day, a co-hostess of the Kalamazoo Pagan Community Brunch, and the organizer of the local Witches Night Out. Several of our organizations are listed in the new “Drawing Down the Moon” by Margot Adler. I’m also the PIO for Cherry Hill Seminary, a different kind of pagan education online school.
My question to everyone at large is this? If an online trad school or college wanted legitimacy, what would it have to offer? I strongly believe in local elders or degree-holders being available as teachers and mentors… but folks have to start somewhere and there are not legitimately degree’d elders and/or leaders in every community. If there were regional groups for an online tradition, would that be an answer?
From my own experience, I have to say that the online classes that I took gave me a good basic foundation of Wicca and certainly started me on my own path in our community.
Susan
To recap some of the above..
“First of all, “Lady Raven” calls herself an Arch High Priestess.”
- Within the Sacred Mists Tradition, an Arch Priestess (or Arch Priest) has trained and initiated at least 5 High Priestesses and/or High Priests within the Tradition and has at least two hived covens. This has been her title within the tradition for 5 years and has been posted on the website’s main page for as many years.
“When she took over the college from Crystal Waterfall, she had not even received her 1st Degree yet.”
- This statement is wholely innaccurate. She had received her 3rd Degree from the Coven of the Golden Skye in Northern California MANY years before ever coming in contact with Lady Moon Willow. She then began and led Sacred Mists as an offline Coven which was actively practicing and meeting well before the online introduction of Sacred Mists.
“…she also takes credit for bringing the college to the internet!”
- This statement is correct. Lady Raven brought Sacred Mists methodologies, teachings and path system to the online community. Crystal Waterfall was not part of this equation, but students of Crystal Waterfall were invited to “grandfather” into the new program, if they wished. Over 2/3 of the Crystal Waterfall students did not continue.
“And this is a “never before offered opportunity”? Please. How many other Witch Schools are there on the web? This is hardly an original idea.”
- Live, online Witchcraft and Wicca seminars are a never before offered online opportunity. This is what the statement is in reference to. However, that being said, there are indeed many schools online and all are unique in their OWN right and to consider them replications of one another in any fashion is entirely wrong. Each one stands tall in their efforts to bring more accessibility, training and knowledge to those who seek. Not everyone will attend one or the other, but they all serve a purpose and they are all serving their calling in whatever way works for their path and the path of those who are involved with them. Kudos to each and every one of them.
“Hell, do they even have a business license? Some states even require special certifications just to call yourself a school. So it’s completely possible they’re operating illegally”
- Yes, they have a business license, resale license for the store and are operating entirely above board according to their state and federal laws, 100%. How do I know? I asked for the license numbers, and then did my own research. They are solid with all organizations, both in license and reporting and are current in their federal and state taxes, reporting as a business.
The bottom line here is this: Sacred Mists provides a service to the Wiccan community and many good ones at that. If you disagree with their methods, that is entirely your opinion and one you’re entitled to have. Not everyone shares your opinion. Be okay with that. If you do not like the group, do not participate in the group. That seems a simple thing. There are many, many groups both online and off available to all who seek. Not every group is going to synch with every person. Each tradition has its own methodologies, teachings, path and content. Each one doing its own thing, but the vast majority having a similar ‘core’ that is true for all Wiccan trainings. They are no different. So find one that works for you and allow the others to walk their own path and find the spiritual home where the feel most comfortable. We should all be so fortunate.
As far as stating commentary coming from “an insider”, I am not quite sure that calling oneself an insider would be accurate as that would mean you would have been involved with Sacred Mists for the past 5 years. Rest assured, they are not one iota like Crystal Waterfall was, and the students who were once subjected to that constant mess of a school are very thankful for the change. Crystal Waterfall, while having its merits, also was riddled with constant access problems, illegal raffles that were rarely fulfilled, an incomplete 2nd degree, no third degree, no complete herbalism class, I could go on. Lady Moon Willow was over her head and asked Lady Raven to either take the college as she was closing its doors, or the students would just have to find somewhere else to go. That is a quote. Beyond that exchange, lets not forget the hundreds of people were left hanging after giving Lady Moon Willow money for merchandise through her “witches R Us” store, subsequently receiving the response after her very sudden departure of “well, I can either give you your money back or pay for my child’s diapers.” Needless to say, most backed down and just ate the loss. I think that the former Crystal Waterfall’s students, wherever they have landed, are probably better off these days. From the sound of Susan’s post, I’d say that’s very true. She has a beautiful attitude reflective of one walking this sacred of paths, as does Brandi’s and Grandmother Toad’s posts as well. They recognize the differences in paths, recognize that we should be holding together, not striving for Witch Wars. Those have gone on far too long and frankly, every group or individual that has ever stepped their toes into the spotlight has undergone their share of attacks. Fair, they are not. But when it happens it tends to show those in the community that the group is on the right track.
Here’s the reality, folks. It comes down to the recommendation for ANY school, regardless of content or venue: Do your homework. Check out what’s being taught, who’s teaching it and ask for some references. Ask to talk to some of the people who are involved with the school you’re interested in and if it all seems to jive with you then take the plunge and see what happens. Otherwise, this discussion is relatively futile and subjective without any basis of merit and completely based on heresay. Just let them be, along with all the other online schools out there, and let them do the positive things they are doing for the community the way they see fit to do it. They aren’t hurting anyone… they’re helping a lot of people in a lot of ways. Good for them and honestly, good for us… the entirety of the pagan community. They have my support, as does Cherry Hill Seminary, Witch School and any number of the reputable and well-known online pagan schools available. They need yours as well.
Merry Meet my Brother and Sister Wiccans!
I have to say that I am very disappointed at the degree of negativity that seems to fill this discussion. I must say that I am biased. I have been with Sacred Mists since the change over from Crystal Waterfall. The one that said that Sacred Mists didn’t exist before 2002, isn’t entirely true. Lady Raven did run a coven by the name of Sacred Mists long before the beginning of the College. I know that there will always be people who will look down upon Lady Raven and the College and honestly, you have the right to your opinion. I won’t try to change that or anybody here who chooses to believe it. However, I’d like to impart my experience with the College. I was a solitary practitioner since I stumbled upon Wicca in 1996. I tried learning from books but found I lacked the discipline and structure needed to expand upon my studies. Since joining Sacred Mists, I have learned many topics and skills that I possibly wouldn’t have otherwise. I have thankful for everyday that I am in the Mists because it is a loving place to learn and explore your spiritual self. Brightest of Blessing to you all, even those of you who sneer at something I hold so dear.
Love and Light always,
Willow Raevynwood
Dear Insider,
The source material for the lessons in the Crystal Waterfall course came from all over the internet. At least the first degree lessons did. At one point in time I saw some website that exposed this, and gave the source of darn near everything, but that site seems to be gone now, and my memory of the details isn’t that great. I do remember that a lot of the course material came from a site called paganlibrary dot com’s reference pages, and a lot came from a Goddess Spirituality 101 course done by Red Deer and Elenya years ago and that is still online . And tids and tads from elsewhere. The point being, the lessons weren’t original to Lady Moonwillow (LMW) - despite her claiming on her site that all the course materials were written by her and her coven./circle members. And whoever the mysterious SnowWolf is, he didn’t write them either.
What CW was offering was FREE stuff taken from other sites, bundled up as lessons and SOLD. Then LMW passed the college on to Raven, who continued selling the same FREE stuff; at least for a while; and might still be for all I know. Her outline is the same; whether the contents are the same I don’t know.
And here’s something else I found interesting (archive dot org being a very interesting website). CW College had an earlier version of lessons prior to ones Raven took over. The outline for these was identical to the outline found on a Fellowship of Isis Lyceum web-course, right down to the four degrees offered, the mention of the Fellowship of Isis, and the mention of going to Chicago to receive one’s degrees. At CW, the complete four degree course cost close to $600. This course later disappeared from the site and was replaced by the (much less expensive) one that Raven eventually took over.
Shortly after Raven acquired CW’s course I was amused by an email on her list (this is before it was closed to all but students) wherein she stated that Sacred Mists was “almost identical” to Crystal Waterfall, as she’d been “trained and ordained” by Lady Moonwillow after studying for 17 years. If she actually meant she’d studied with LMW for 17 years that would have been interesting, as 17 yrs prior Lady Moonwillow would have been 8 yrs old! Also of interest is that Raven had said (as is noted by “A Real Insider” as well) that when she got the CW materials from LMW the third degree material was either non-existent or barely begun. So if there was no 3rd degree material, how did Raven study with LMW and ger her 3rd ?
Not too long after saying she’d been ordained by LWM, she mentioned on the Witchwars list (where she’d come to defend herself) that she’d been initiated into a coven in her area called the Golden Sky coven 7 years before (and after 10 yrs of study) by someone named Lady Igraine, who could “trace her Witchcraft lineage back countless generations.”
My thought on this was - well, if she’d studied for 10 years, had a real life initiation into a real life coven by real life HPS with a fabulous lineage, why on earth would she need or want to go after one in an online college run by a 25 yr old?
” if she’d studied for 10 years, had a real life initiation into a real life coven by real life HPS with a fabulous lineage, why on earth would she need or want to go after one in an online college run by a 25 yr old?”
Because it was available on the internet and to broaden your scope and experience in all areas of your belief is important. Reaching out in every way, expanding your knowledge and growing in the Craft is something that is taught at every stage and step. There is no harm in that, and that is exactly what she did. Isn’t that a personal choice for one to make? As a matter of fact, this type of exploration continues to be highly encouraged within SM. Now, back to Raven, she had no idea that Moon Willow was 25 years old. She never thought to ask someone’s age. Is that so surprising? I certainly don’t go around asking people how old they are, regardless of venue. I remember well how she was shocked to learn Moon Willow’s age. Raven was only around Crystal Waterfall for, at the very best, a few short months (not 17 years, I know its hard to believe but Raven did have a life, and followed her path, long before CWF and SM’s online program came into being), watching all of the insanity and even offered to help Moon Willow fix the problems she was having. She helped do the store website for Moon Willow and helped with countless other technical and design tasks to the best of her ability. LMW confided in her and that is how she came to tell Raven, after yet another enire crash of her school website accesses and overwhelming numbers of people knocking on her door demanding their due for money paid (which LMW had already spent and could not deliver on), “Do you want to take on all of this? If not, I’m just closing the doors and they’ll have to figure out another place to go. I can’t handle this anymore.” Raven told her clearly that she was an ordained 3rd Degree Priestess in another tradition and Crystal said that she would need to test her knowledge and subsequently initiate her as a 3rd Degree in CW’s tradition so that she could “take over CW”, if that was what she wanted to do. Raven had a big decision on her hands and after her decision was made to try to see what she could do with it and after all was said and done, she decided that she would not continue CW but would bring Sacred Mists, and her existing Tradition and path system, online and allow people to grandfather over to that program from the defunct and dropped-on-its-head CW, if they desired. An exhorbitant amount of work was done on her part to try and help the thousands of people left stranded by that nightmare. I commend her. She helped a lot of people and continues to do so to this very day.
Kerridwen, you’re clearly out for blood here… or something. You sound like you’re on a witch hunt, and its just perplexing as to exactly what you’re trying to accomplish here that’s in any way positive. I think its time you figure out what you’re wanting instead of trying to break down something, and someone, positive in the pagan community. It’s ridiculous frankly, and I think it needs to stop. Take a look at yourself and what you’re doing. Whatever transpired between those two women is none of your business. You’re not even a student! Why do you care? What should be looked here at is that SM is doing alot of great things in the community for a lot of people. The SM school and offerings are helping people, not hindering. The people within the school are learning, growing and gaining in their spiritual (and I’ll add, personal) lives. Is everyone going to be happy with SM? No… Is everyone happy with everything? To set that standard would be more ridiculousness. She’s doing a good job. She’s setting the right example. She’s leading as a good HPs should. She’s growing with the evolution of the Craft, as we all will need to. She’s providing a venue for that. Want to knock her for that? Good grief. Read Progressive Witchcraft by Farrar and Bone… read Weaving the Web by M. Macha Nightmare. Let’s continue forward through Wicca’s evolution, and allow them to continue to do the good things they are doing instead of trying to tear them down. I don’t know about you, but destruction and perpetuating anger, angst and negativity is not part of my path and last time I checked it wasn’t the path of anyone who was truly walking the path of Wicca. If they weren’t doing well for people, you’d know it. No one would be there. All I’ve heard from current students is that they are happy there. Oh sure, we’ve heard from a few self-proclaimed ex-students stating they were kicked out, and as a Real Insider I know the drill on them too - from the inside having watched them and their antics that have no place within SM - and let me just say that they are doozies in their own right but as I don’t like to “go there”, I’m opting to ignore them entirely, as they deserve, and let them go their way.
You’re all speaking out of “I don’t know”.. “maybe”.. “as far as I heard”… those aren’t things to base an argument on. So let SM, CWF, and any of the other schools and covens BE. Raven is doing a damn good job and she’s being a true leader in the pagan community. Who cares who she was trickled down from! Does it REALLY matter? I think it matters far more to learn who the person is by seeing their accomplishments and from those the person touches in a positive way. I’d say that marks thousands of people at this point who would say they have been touched positively by SM. To dredge up rocky beginnings is just a means of trying to tear down what has proven to be a very positive thing. So let’s leave it at that and commend them for all of the good they ARE doing instead of dribbling on about things that are again utter heresay, riddled with pettiness, outright lies and far reaching assumption. Walk your own path. No one is getting in your way and I find it exceedingly wrong for you to get in the way of others or to judge them for theirs.
Out for blood? No, just out for truth…..
Because it was available on the internet….
Thank you; you’ve just made my point. Someone with a real life initiation from a real life coven, particularly an initiation into a hereditary tradition, would have no interest whatsoever in an online school offering online initiations, because they’d know that such things are absurd; initiations cannot be done online.
…and to broaden your scope and experience in all areas of your belief is important. Reaching out in every way, expanding your knowledge and growing in the Craft is something that is taught at every stage and step.
In general, yes. This is why pagans generally have well-stocked bookshelves. But ‘reaching out in every way’ — not really.
Raven is doing a damn good job and she’s being a true leader in the pagan community. Who cares who she was trickled down from! Does it REALLY matter? I think it matters far more to learn who the person is by seeing their accomplishments and from those the person touches in a positive way. I’d say that marks thousands of people at this point who would say they have been touched positively by SM. To dredge up rocky beginnings is just a means of trying to tear down what has proven to be a very positive thing.
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds to me like what you’re saying is that it shouldn’t matter if Raven is being untruthful about her lineage, her tradition, where she got her lessons, or any of it, because lots of people are happy with her school, and that means she’s doing a good thing. Is that really what you’re saying? If so, I am in amazement that truth carries such little value for you.
Look, here’s the deal. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Craft is not to be sold. It is not a BUSINESS….“Traditional Wiccan Degrees” and lineages cannot be purchased, or earned online. Got that?
Looked at from a TRADITIONAL rather than