Unscrupulous Pagans
Every sector of humanity has it’s share of selfish, money grubbing sycophants who will take you for every penny you’re willing to toss their way. While these people tend to stick to more popular avenues of depravity (such as pyramid schemes), the worst of the lot pray on the religiously insecure (pun intended). This particular group of marks is substantially easier to trick out of their money simply for the promise of a special status or enlightenment. Since this isn’t anything new (Robert Tilton, for example), I tend to glaze over it with a pessimistic apathy. That is, however, with the notable exception of fellow Pagans. When I see this in our religion, I tend to become outraged. Enter the painfully ugly WorkingWitches.com and the following Google ad I found for them:
As you can see, the ad claims they offer some “Wiccan Degree Program” and being on Adsence, it’s a safe bet they’re out for profit. This instantly sent off my bullshit alarm because a) There is no accredited school in Paganism able to offer a degree, b) it makes claims of “Advanced Wiccan Certification”, in spite of the fact there is no organized religious body behind the faith and c) religion isn’t something that can be bought. Angry, and getting more so by the second, I dove into the rabbit hole and came up with how the scam works.
Like every scam in the world, they like to be a little short on the details. For example, they don’t explain or give any information on the tradition you’ll be “learning”. Considering how individualized most Pagan (and especially Wiccan) paths are, this should be out there in big, bold text. If you wanted an apple, you would simply buy a bag titled “Fruit” would you? What about the “school” itself? Is it incorporated or does all the money simply go into “Raven Moonshadows’” pocket? What’s more, they include zero information on this “Lady Raven Moonshadow” (or should I say
The tuition fees for enrolling, and continuing enrollment in the College of the Sacred Mists are as follows: a one time enrollment fee of $25.00 (requested for each degree, upon enrollment), and a $20.00 per month tuition fee. PayPal tuition subscriptions are maintained on a month-to-month automatic subscription basis, with the first payment totaling $45.00. Money Order tuition submissions require a semi-annual pre-payment schedule. Your tuitions help to support the College activities, administration and time that goes into the quality education and experience found within Sacred Mists. We’re confident that you’ll not find the same quality, interaction and atmosphere anywhere else regardless of cost!
Let me get this right. First, I pay you $25 just to join up, then you get another $25 for every degree I get and finally, you charge me $20 a month for the program itself. Notice how this doesn’t say a single word about how long the “classes” are? You have to dig around a bit more to find that all degree programs go by the 1 year, 1 day standard with traditional covens. So for a single degree, you’ll be paying $265. Twice that if you go for the “elder” program. Mind you, that’s if you even pass. Since the ToS for the site clearly puts all the power in the hands of Moonscam, nothing stops her from saying you need a few more months of training.
Now, I want to be clear. There are a lot of Pagan/Wiccan classes out there that charge a fee and I have no problem with them. Those that have physical needs like a rented room to work out of, books, printing costs, transportation, etc need help covering the costs. This garbage however, is all online. Running a simple trace on ARIN shows they’re hosted by Pair. They have accounts that start at about $6 a month. Dive a little deeper and you find all this communication is being done over MSN Groups, a free service. So, again, where is all this money going?
Clearly, this is profiting in the name of religion. Lorien is targeting young, naive and gullible people into shelling out hard earned money better spent on far more worthy endeavors. It’s a disgrace to Pagans everywhere. Anyone currently paying for this needs to wake up and realize there are countless thousands of free, open communities on the internet that can help teach you everything you need to know. There may also be groups in your area willing to give you personal, one-on-one instruction. Just check the WitchVox Pagan Networking site and you’ll find thousands across the world.
RSS 2.0
Merry meet dear (I am not sure what your name is? I don’t see that you have signed your post?)
I am a Second Degree Priestess of the Coven of Sacred Mists (www.workingwitches.com) and a member of the Sacred Mists College Student Council. I have been a student of Sacred Mists since its inception in 2001.
While you are entitled to your opinion, I find it is based on many assumptions. Thank you for posting our website address; I invite anyone who is interested in learning more to find out for themselves rather than relying on information from someone who has no personal knowledge of the warm, welcoming, educational and spiritual Wiccan Community that is Sacred Mists.
I challenge anyone to compare what Sacred Mists has to offer the Pagan Community with any other Wiccan Online College available today. I will remind the author of the above post that as an online College we have the availability to reach out to students all over the world; and indeed, we are a thriving International Community.
If anyone, including the unknown author of this post, would like more information on Sacred Mists Online Wiccan College, they are most welcome to email me personally.
Brightest blessings,
Priestess Shanelle Mystal deVenus
Coven of the Sacred Mists
shauni@workingwitches.com
shanelleve@aol.com
First, it’s not very hard to figure out who I am. After all, my name is in the url, the titlebar, the bio page, the footer, many posts, the site’s registration details, the photo pages, twice in the header image and several other pages I’m sure I’ve overlooked. Since this is my personal blog, there’s never been much of a reason to sign anything.
That aside, hi. I’m Juvenall Wilson. Not a magical name, not a pseudonym.
While I’m sure it’s very “warm, welcoming, educational and spiritual”, it’s still unscrupulous. Lying about a degree program in Wicca is misleading when what’s really being offered is a certificate program from a coven that few outside of the “school” know of. This gives a false sense of authority. No assumption here. The only difference between this and those “Get your PhD via email” scams is “Sacred Mists” willingness to take advantage of the spiritually misguided.
Further, no assumptions were made when I criticized “Lady Raven Moonshadow” with her lack of credentials. Asking what gives her the right to teach is a very valid question. The only people who ask for money and fail to make what gives them the ability to do the service they’re offering are scammers. So anyone who believes in caveat emperor and a little due diligence before throwing that much money out the window would have the same questions.
Finally, with respect to the “school’s” internationalization, that’s how the internet works. I’m a member of many pagan forums, chat groups, IRC rooms and Yahoo Groups that are filled with people from around the world. Not one of them demands payment for the right to talk with others. Pagan’s should know better than to force payment for dissemination of information.
Just for you,
Juvenall Wilson
Merry meet Juvenall,
Thank you for the introduction! I apologise I wasn’t formerly familiar with your blog and for not realizing this was your personal site. That certainly does explain why you didn’t sign your post.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I encourage anyone who is interested in Wiccan Training to carefully research beforehand any internet group that offers schooling in exchange for payment. Ask questions! Check the http://www.witchvox.com site for recommendations. Speak to others who have previously experienced any given program and ask about their experience.
Credentials, class descriptions and all pertinant information regarding Lady Raven Moonshadow and Sacred Mists College are available on and within the http://www.workingwitches.com website, and the website itself has been honored two years in a row as 2004 and 2005 “Best of the Best” in the publication “The Web’s Greatest Hits” by Lynie Arden… “Site is extraordinarily good, regardless of topic.”
And as always, I am happy to answer any questions regarding Sacred Mists College and the Sacred Mist Tradition.
Brightest blessings!
Shauni Waterdragon
shauni@workingwitches.com
shauni@aol.com
Greetings Juvenall,
I think what you are pointing out in the post on your website is the very basis of Wicca itself. It is not sanctioned by any one governing organization. My hope is that it never will be… at least not to the level that the Christian/Catholic churches are. That would leave a world of eclecticism behind and force a doctrine-based spirituality that many of us have fled from in the first place.
My training is not hidden, and is readily available for those who ask. I find it interesting that you did not. Had you asked, you would have found that I have been on this path for 17 years, and gained my formalized training with the Coven of the Golden Skye, a Coven I remained with for eight years formally. My story goes on from there, but I think that provides enough for you at this time.
Wiccan Degrees are not University Degrees and I have never touted them as such. They are a measure of study, knowledge and training within a particular Circle or Coven’s belief system. I have never, and will never, state otherwise. Sadly, no reputable accrediting agency will touch Wiccan programs. Believe me, I have tried. I have done my research and reached out to as many as I can find and they simply will not recognize them. I can only assume that this is because they cannot come to grips with our content. That hasn’t deterred my conviction to continue trying. We are, however, involved with many well known organizations where we are lending our assistance, for example, toward gaining approval for Pagan military grave markers so that they can bear the symbol of the sacred pentacle. This one is an uphill battle, but indeed we will continue on the issue until those who wish to follow this path, and leave their spiritual legacy behind in such a way, may do so with the support of the government whom they served in this lifetime. We also have sent in a great deal of donation money for those affected this past year with natural disasters, both humans and their animals. There are so many other areas we are involved in and yet, you do not know this because you did not ask.
We have a current staffing base of 10 people, all of whom require payment for hourly services (yes, real 40 hour per week jobs) and without them we would not be able to serve those who come to us for training. We also must pay for lighting of our office, general power, computer and telephone systems including a toll-free number so that students do not have to spend their own money speaking with us directly, dedicated servers, office supplies, printer ink, paper, taxes, licensing, advertising (Yes, advertising. Which is extremely costly. This is not “Field of Dreams” and letting people know we are available to them is a requirement, regardless of venue), accounting, and far more beyond that. I see that you mentioned that we are not designated “non-profit”. Do you have any idea of the costs involved with a non-profit organization? I do, and with a group as large as ours that would still need to bring in tuitions in order to continue operating; the basic cost for accountant efforts, state and federal filings and otherwise can go into the thousands of dollars each year. Non-profit doesn’t mean that those working within the organization don’t get compensated for their services. It simply means that the organization is an entity that does not make a direct profit in and of itself. For us, at this time, we prefer to keep tuitions as low as possible for each student and keep the quality of education and interaction extremely high and we strive to ensure that we can do that each and every day by making sure that what we engage in does not increase the bottom line for everyone involved. I think that is smart, don’t you?
We hire students within our College as positions open (currently we have 4 students on staff), providing home-based, legitimate jobs to those who would otherwise not be able to make a living. We also have an Oversight Committee in the form of a Student Council who act as the governing group for the whole of the College. No single person is the decision maker. Our accountant is also a student of the College and has full access to all financials. If anything was amiss, rest assured it would be well known.
While I appreciate your opinion, I must say that it is just that. An opinion. I disagree with your opinion and must say that it is indeed short-sighted and most definitely not based on the reality of what we are about and what we are doing. Point in fact, I stipend the operations of the College each and every month with personal money taken directly from my own family earnings in order to make financial ends meet and have done so for the 5 years we have been available in this venue. No one is lining their pockets, no one is getting rich and no one has the desire to do anything but ensure that we can continue forward on the path of teaching and growing with those who seek to do so through our offerings. Our offerings may not be for everyone, but that does not mean we are unscrupulous. That is a rather bold statement, particularly when you aren’t clear on what you are writing about and I do not agree with your statement in any fashion. Of course, I realize I do not have to as they are merely opinions from someone outside of the issue who has no facts to back up their opinions and nothing more.
On the subject of pseudonyms, have you thought of the reason why people in this arena use them? I’d like to suggest that you might think on it, as you so boldly state my mundane name without thinking of the harm that could possibly befall my own family because of it. I have children, and a large majority of my family is extremely religious right. I do not share my path with all of them because it would hurt them and I do not feel the need to hurt them simply to make me feel ‘seen’. Beyond that, I believe in the power of thought and belief. I believe that you can believe your own afterlives into reality. As such, if my very religious right family believes that my path will surely manifest my eternal damnation thus resulting in them never seeing me again, I believe they can surely make this a reality for themselves. I do not want that to happen and because of your post, a search on my name now will reveal the link to my own, very personal, chosen spiritual path. Just perhaps, the revelation of my personal path to others who do not follow this path is a choice for me to make and not one for you to make for me? For someone who seems to claim themselves Pagan, surely you understand the need, or choice, for pseudonyms and magickal names. Surely you understand the harm that could befall someone who chooses not to come fully out of the broom closet for their own personal reasons? Perhaps you will consider removing my mundane name from your original post. I would appreciate it, for those reasons alone. Thank you for your consideration.
Why am I sharing this with you? Because I think, in a very round about way, you asked. I have nothing to hide. Sacred Mists was brought to the online venue to continue the vision of facilitating positive change within those who seek it, and in the vast world around us. We have made a resource available to thousands, and not all are paying students. We offer hundreds of scholarships each year. These scholarships must be supported as well. We offer financial aid to students in times of need with monetary support. We provide a place for spiritual growth and learning. We offer things an offline Circle and Coven would to its members. We have dedicated our lives to this work and will continue to do so.
My hope is that you will read this and perhaps find yourself holding a different opinion of what we are doing and how we are doing it. We seek to share, not to harm and most certainly not to scam. Thank you for your time and attention and I hope that you consider perhaps editing or removing the post you placed on your website after reading the information I have provided. If not, I appreciate the opportunity to share with your readers the reality of what we offer. I also wish you well on your own personal and chosen path, whatever it may be and wherever it may lead you.
Many blessings,
- Lady Raven
The last several years have seen a flood of these kinds of dubious enterprises. Anyone with web savvy, a good internet connection, and a bunch of books on their shelf can set themselves up in business as Wiccan or Pagan School.
Sacred Mists is an interesting phenomenon. I remember reading about it a few years back on some egroup or other, and if memory serves me, Sacred Mists showed up on the scene in early 2002 when Lady Raven took over the College of the Crystal Waterfall from its owner, Lady Moonwillow. (a.k.a.Crystal Wheeler).
The problem was that Crystal Waterfall College had major issues, I seem to recall that most of its curriculum, including its Herbal Course, had been lifted pretty much wholesale from various sites all over the internet. So the owner was selling stolen goods - things that could be found for free in other places online.
I have no idea what Sacred Mist is teaching at the moment but its course outline (as shown on the Working Witches website) is pretty much identical to what it was in the beginning – that is, the same outline used by Crystal Waterfall – and this includes the Herbalism Course as well as the First Degree Wicca program.
To see the similarities, check the Working Witches website page with course details, and compare it to this archived page
http://web.archive.org/web/20001002135232/crystalwaterfall.com/coursedetails.htm
Very close to identical…. Now is the content the same as it was when it was Crystal Waterfall? I don’t know, but it’s strange that the names of the lessons are the same.
As far as the 10 person/40 hr per week staff, well, that’s kind of a catch-22, isn’t it? If Raven wasn’t actively peddling her For Profit school, advertising like crazy and drawing in students, she wouldn’t need the staff, would she? So yes, of course this is a business for her. It’s about making money. And between that and her online store, I’ll bet she is…….Do the math.
The internet has made it very easy for petty crooks to get away with fraud and wholesale plagiarism. They pillage websites for information, create their own courses by posting the pilllaged stuff to their own pages, which they then password to keep out anyone but paying customers. They claim copyright on their lessons, and make their customers/students promise to keep the lessons secret from people not enrolled…. .and so it goes. Pretty clever, eh?
I’m not really accusing Sacred Mists of this because I don’t know for certain. But I’ve seen others. The information in the lessons of such online schools may well be wonderful, inspiring, enlightening, and useful; but original to the “seller” they are not.
I agree wholeheartedly with Juvenal. Unfortunately, I wanted a piece of paper to really prove that I had some training in Wicca to offset the many charlatans around. Ms. Raven and Co. do recommend a year and a day for the training. But, just as Juvenal says, she adds more and more work to do, making it impossible to finish the program in the the allocated time and thusly making your “stay” there longer and longer. Many of her “worker-bees” do all the teaching and correcting of papers. They have no training whatsoever, not even in the use of spell-check. Quite a few have alredy left as they were totally burned out by overwork. I will tell some of them of this blog and maybe we can hear more of what they say.
You are encouraged GREATLY to buy from the shoppe as a student. AS a matter of fact, it is highlighted and quizzed upon in Lesson #1, as if, #1 Actung! BUY FROM THIS SHOPPE OR ELSE!! The money is collected up front, and sometimes the items take months to arrive and when I reminded Ms Raven that this is not the standard in the community of internet vendors (is is typical to order the item, have it sent and the moment it is sent, charge your credit card), she seemed uncaring and said merely “Oh Well.” I had purchased over $300 worth of items, and did not receive them for 2 months, tying up my money for all that time. Ms. Raven is extremely pushy when it comes to the students having to purchase purchase items only from her “shoppe” claiming it helps the Sacred Mist cause even though she pays her “teachers” nothing and operates Sacred Mists probably very cheaply at the MSN FREE sites. I bought a wand directly from Abby Willowroot herself and it was half the price than the one at “the shoppe” was. Also, she allows no returns, only in house exchanges. I ordered a magazine from her, costing about $6.00. She said it was no longer available. So, I never could find anything at that price in her Shoppe and by this time, I was totally disgusted and just wanted nothing more to do with her and “Sacred Mists.”
Not to worry though, as MSN is going to take out all of the “Groups” chat rooms, where she hold her Sabbats and Esbats, so, hmmm…..perhaps her own karma is coming back to her. The law of 3 times 3 always prevails.
Myself and some of my ex-SM friends call it Sado-Masochists instead of Sacred Mists and even though this is said in jest, many of the students are very young and are easily conned. I think places like this give a bad name for Wicca and also cause emotional harm and turmoil to trusting young souls.
You are absolutely correct Juvenal and I applaud you for picking up that this woman is after money, only, and cares very little about the Wiccan cause. I wish I had been more in tune with the whole scene and I could have avoided the loss of about $200.
Morgaine
PS to Shauni, I am sure you are very nice, but you best take off your rose colored glasses.
I’ve always been offended by her basic premise that one could ‘earn’ their three wiccan degrees through her school, AS IF they were like college degrees wherein coursework must be completed and exams passed before the piece of paper is issued. NOT. And who gave HER the authority to offer such degrees anyway? What crap.
I’m one of the few who actually was thrown out of Sacred Mists after my husband who obtained his 4th degree many years ago with a local coven that no longer exists, had a disagreement with Lady Raven. We too have a problem with covens that charge. I can’t say I regret the time I spent there, because I did meet some very wonderful people whom I remain friends with to this day. But if Lady Raven has walked the Pantacle and been officially ordained as an AHPs in a coven then it would be nice for her to submit that information to the public so they know what order she studied under and is teaching.
2 problems I had when studying at Sacred Mists were…
1. There was little reference to God and when he was mentioned he HAD to be AFTER the Goddess. There was no discussion on this, per Lady Raven.
2. Whenever we took from Mother Earth, Lady Raven never gave Thanks. She actually stated she pitied us who always did.
I wish I had been given the chance to say Good Bye as I had been planing to leave after I fulfilled promises I had made. But I also have to admit Lady Raven did me a huge favor when she threw me out.
Bright Blessings,
Lilly
PS: While you are checking out Unscrupulus Pagans you need to take a look at these 2 Schools. http://mstikalseasons.net/ http://mstikalseasons.net/index-school.html and now she plans to open a school to teach children from the ages of 8 to 12 here http://mrsmugworts.mstikalseasons.net/ and charging their parents $20 a month to do so.
Please note the similarity in course outline and wording of statement between the old Crystal Waterfall Herbalism Course and $acred Mist$ Herbalism Course:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010618083819/crystalwaterfall.com/herbalist/
http://www.workingwitches.com/herbal/index.html
Looks like the same package of goods is being peddled; goods taken from various websites, bundled together and sold as new. Caveat Emptor!
Merry Meet All ~
Yes, I was one of the unfortunate few to be thrown out of Sacred Mists, as it’s Lady Raven’s way, or the highway. So, when Lady Raven says her school is “eclectic”, she needs to open a dictonary and look up the meaning of the word. I have been on my path for over 32 years now… almost a lifetime of devotion to learning the ways of the craft and the Pagan world. One thing I have learned over and over again, is you NEVER charge for magickal lessons, as the information contained within them, comes from the Lord and Lady. The Lord and Lady are immanent, all knowing, all seeing, loving and caring, as they share the knowledge of the earth, heavens, universal energy and spirit world with us and the magick that we create from these realms. This is given to us… FREELY!… with love and devotion from the Devine source. So who are we to charge a fee to pass on this knowledge that has been instilled in us to fledglings? We do not have that right, nor power to do so. If one chooses to use an office, staff, etc., then that person is responsible for that maintenace, not the students. However, should a student willingly, and of their own free will give a donation in the form of money, candles, incense, etc., that is totally acceptable, and should be graciously taken with many thanks. Thanks not only to the giver, but to the Lord and Lady themselves!
I come from the Coven of The Shining Tree, which unfortunately is now disbanded, as people have went their own ways for family, jobs, school, etc. This is where I attained the level of Arch High Priest in the Celtic Gwyndonnic Tradition during my 16 year tenure. It wasn’t an easy path to say the least, but with hard work, meditation and plenty of magickal working with the Lord and Lady I arose to my current level. I now devote my time to teaching and still maintain a spirit investigation group. All of which I never charge a dime for services rendered! I am currently starting work on becoming licensed clergy in my state, so I may render government sanctioned assistance to those of the Pagan Community that are in need. I started out learning the ways from my grandmother, who in all rights was a witch herself. Growing and harvesting herbs, magickal cures, spellwork, and all the fine aspects of what is right and wrong in what I did in the magickal world. I loved hearing the translations from her mother’s, and before that grandmother’s, Books of Shadows, which were written mostly in Gaelic. Ancient remedies, spellwork, herbal cures, potions, on and on. I will have to say my mother wasn’t too happy, but we spent most of our time with grandma, so it was a trade off to Mom. I will say, as children, my mother still made us go to the local Methodist Church, sing in the choir, etc., so I grew to know the differences between the Christian and Pagan worlds and stuck with the Pagan world. I can remember one time the minister at the church saw, while we were changing our into our choir robes, the pentagram pendant my grandmother had given me. He didn’t go ballistic, but just asked if I knew the difference. I was ten at the time and replied “Yes Sir, the Christians stole Paganism”. Talk about out of the mouths of babes! He never got miffed, just wanted to know if I knew the difference. He smiled and walked away, and I never heard about it again.
In so far as taking information from other Pagan internet sources, it should be done in the form of research. Everyone remembers high school english class, and what bibliographies, and footnotes are. You read from the author, gleen the information, then put what you have gleened into your own words and actions. However, if one desires, and just has to use the author’s exact words… then ask! If the author agrees, give them ample credit for the information in your writing. In so far as the Pagan Community is concerned, there are things that are stated the same way everytime, such as the Wiccan Rede or the Rule of Three, etc. That you can’t get away from copying word for word. Spellwork and magick is something that comes from the heart, mind and spirit of the individual, and is interpretive to the individual creator. We are not “cookie stamped” like Christianity. But in Sacred Mists you must be “Lady Raven stamped” for approval. No discussion, no interpretation, no individual thought, it’s Lady Raven’s way, or the highway.
What kerridwyn, Morgaine SilverOak and Lilly Skye Dancing Wolfe have said is absolutely true. I will stand by the sacred altar and swear this truth in the name of the Lord and Lady. However, I wish Lady Raven and Sacred Mists no ill will, nor harm.
I can relate something I was given about me, so I’m not breaking any vows of silence in the craft. My forte, so to speak, is spirit communications. I am very well versed in this aspect and good at what I do with the spirit world. While at Sacred Mists I was asked to join a group that dealt with speaking acros the divide, or parting the veil if you will. While in that group I served to communicate with spirit entities that others were having trouble with. Now this is not meant for the faint hearted in the least, but one person was claimed to have been frightened by the entity in their home and how I dealt with it. Now mind you, this was outside of the school, as a matter of fact the student and I were on Yahoo messenger at the time. As anyone knows, or should know, once a conversation is ended on Yahoo or MSN messengers, you can still scroll back up to the beginning and block copy everything that was said and save it in a word processor. When I do spirit work with others, it is to remain between myself and the particular person, however, this was apparently block copied and sent to Lady Raven and her Student Council, which is a violation of confidence.
After I had been ejected from Sacred Mists, I received a copy of the minutes of a meeting, which directly involved a discussion about me and my ejection. From what is stated in this, it was nothing but ill tempered, two-faced, lying. One person even made the suggestion of binding me! How childish! They even worked themselves up to the frenzied point of performing a Cone of Protection Ritual against me! Yes, Lady Raven led the whole thing. Now I ask you, is this the true mark of a High Priestess and what she must stand for? I think not. First, quite alot of the information came from a discussion she and I had via phone, as High Priestess and student, which is a violation of the vow of silence and confidence. Second, actually leading a “degrading and demoralizing someone session”, AFTER you’ve ejected them from your school is never the mark of a High Priestess, not to mention a leader in the Pagan Community. But again, I state facts, not breaking any vows of silence, nor breaking confidences, and wish Lady Raven, nor anyone at the meeting, no ill will.
Now the store… what Morgaine says is true. It does take forever to receive your items. Once I’d made an order, and upon receiving it, noticed they had made a clerical error in sending me four extra of a particular item. Apparently the item came from the vendor boxed in a set of five, and the shipping person that physically filled my order, just grabbed the box off the shelf and threw it in with my order, not realizing they should have opened the box and took out just one of the item I’d ordered. I called the shoppe to advise them of their error, and inquired of the process in returning the four extras they’d sent me. No self addressed, stamped label ever came. I actually paid the US Post Office, from my own pocket, to return that which wasn’t rightfully mine. I never got a thank you, store credit, or anything…. not that I was looking for it, but that it’s just plain courteous to say thank you when someone does you a favor. I won’t even get into the T-Shirt boon-doggle!
Mentioning thank you, Lilly is correct when says Lady Raven said she pitied those that said thank you everytime they took something from nature. It’s a long standing belief in the Pagan world you say thank you for EVERYTHING you take from nature. From an individual blade of grass to a limb from a tree and everything in between, does not belong to you, but to nature, and thus the Lord and Lady. You ask, get permission, take then give thanks for what was granted you. We do not own nature, it owns us, as we are an integral part of the whole. I always carry a small cloth bag of tobacco, and leave a pinch as a thank you gift, along with my grateful thanksgiving when I am granted permission to take something from nature. I have the saying “What is given you by nature, leave nature as thanksgiving in return and be grateful for your life’s path”. Needless to say, I was appalled to hear the words “I pity those that say thank you everytime they take something from nature” from a High Priestess!
One other thing everyone must be aware of… when you join a MSN Group and post pictures or create a picture album on a site, it takes up space in your free 3MB of MSN storage you get. If you get ejected from a group, and they do not delete your album and any posts with pictures, you’re plain screwed, as those pictures are still sitting there, taking up space in your free MSN storage! That’s a problem MSN needs to address across the board. You should have access to any stored files, on any site in your MSN account, and have the right to delete them as you see fit, whether you are sill a memeber or not. After all, they are your pictures and files… ie, your property. It took months, before I finally found someone still in Sacred Mists, with manager/leadership abilities, to delete my picture album. I won’t mention their name, but if that person reads this blog, thank you so very much again for deleting my album!
In summary, and as Juvenall Wilson and kerridwyn have said ~ Caveat Emptor! Check out the school, do research on it’s ratings, and above all… ASK QUESTIONS! After all, it’s your life’s path you’re putting on the line. You want to make sure you pick the school that’s right for you and have the books to back up and verify the knowledge. Another way is to find a local Pagan/Wiccan group or coven in your community. They are most willing to extend you an invitation to be an inquisitor. Attend some meetings, ask questions of the members/covenors about good internet sites. They’re not going to bite you, and will be happy to point you in the right direction. Finally, follow your heart, mind and spirit. Meditate and ask the Lord and Lady if this or that is correct. The answers you seek are but a question away!
Brightest Blessings to All!
Lord AmethystGeode
Well hello Geode! Hello Lily! How’s it going with your new school? It wasn’t free before, have you changed that?
You post: “The Lord and Lady are immanent, all knowing, all seeing, loving and caring, as they share the knowledge of the earth, heavens, universal energy and spirit world with us and the magick that we create from these realms. This is given to us… FREELY!… with love and devotion from the Devine source. So who are we to charge a fee to pass on this knowledge that has been instilled in us to fledglings? We do not have that right, nor power to do so. If one chooses to use an office, staff, etc., then that person is responsible for that maintenace, not the students. However, should a student willingly, and of their own free will give a donation in the form of money, candles, incense, etc., that is totally acceptable, and should be graciously taken with many thanks. Thanks not only to the giver, but to the Lord and Lady themselves!”
But the last time I checked Geode, your school not only charged a tuition fee, but also had it’s own shop of things for purchase, and you had set it up in the same manner as Sacred Mists. They say that copying is the sincerest form of flattery, so for that I thank you.
As for your and Lily’s accusation that Lady Raven laughs at those who give thanks when taking something from the Earth. What utter hogwash! I am so sorry those who did not have a good experience at Sacred Mists carry such negative energy in their hearts, and I send healing to your higher self should you choose to accept it. In the meantime, remember that you get out what you put in to things, and over 2,000 students are still studying and progressing on their paths with Sacred Mists. I too invite anyone who is interested to research our college and decide for themselves.
Brightest blessings,
Shauni Waterdragon
Priestess of the Sacred Mists
Wow! I have just stumbled onto this site and I am truly ashamed of my pagan brothers and sisters who have bantered back and forth in this blog! It is not bad enough that our faith and people have endured centuries of tortue, death, and discrimination, but you all have to put in-fighting on the internet to fuel the flames!
Just so you all know where I am coming from, I am a nine year solitary Wiccan in search of a more formal religious education, and have decided that it is time for me to become more involved in my faith based community. I have nothing to do with the Sacred Mists or the owner of this blog. I do however see the two sides of the this coin.
First of all, as an almost 30 year old woman, with two associate degrees, I am looking for a formal place to obtain my religious education. I have spent nine years doing my own research, and I feel like they have been nine years of flounders through books and miscellanious classes-learning on my own and never even knowing if I am even pronouncing diety names correctly. It is important to me (as is with the rest of my generation) that I have a solid foundation in my studies, which is usually obtained through formal learning ie. college or university. I yearn for this experience. I need to know who is legite and who is a fraud. With the internet these days…you just don’t know.
Having said that, you can not knock people for trying to formalize our structure a little bit. We don’t have any place to find legitimacy- and that includes Witchvox. Witchvox is a resource…a magazine, a news channel, a newspaper on the internet. A place for witches to meet and form community. It is not the American Council of Witches, a national council of elders, etc. No one has the authority to grant the rights to teach “en-mass”, or speak for our community, or even contribute to the world in the name of our faith. Now, don’t get me wrong, we do not want to turn into the catholic church. Part of the beauty of Pagan religions is that we, as believers, do not have to follow any set doctorine or formal structure. But don’t forget the Burning Times, where we were nearly wiped out, along with our faith. Most of our religion was lost with those who perished or went into hiding. Now for the rest of eternity so much is lost to us.
Witches need to come together as a whole. We can become a structured religion and reap the benifits without loosing site of the important things like “no one is better than anyone else because of position,” like “Witches are so diverse that no one Witch worships the same way,” like “we love our local and not so local communities and our earth, and strive not just as individuals but also as a faith-based community to give back to the community and mother earth.” You have all lost site of what is really important here.
Sacred Mists in an online university that offers a formal education to witches across the globe. Maybe they don’t do it the best way (which is always up for debate by the way) but at least they are trying to do something. And maybe Lady Raven is making a profit. Maybe she isn’t. The Gods empower us to provide for ourselves in anyway we see fit so long as it harms none. Who are you to say she can not provide for her family and employees while also providing a service to our pagan community. She is employing people, providing scholarships, providing knowledge, and fufilling a need. In the business world, that is good business and the best way to make that business grow. Besides, $20 a month?? Are you kidding me? Do you know what an education costs today?
And what about this arguement that she can’t make money off of our religion? Every supply shop, internet service, and psychic (that charges) is making money off of the faith. At least these people are doing something they enjoy and something worthy. Give me a break! Its not like they are running a Fortune 500 company.
Now for the other side of the coin. To the Coven of the Sacred Mists-you had better not be cheating people. I saw the links and read the testimonials. I have to say they are very convincing. In business these things can destroy your reputation and your college (just like bad apples). In the Wiccan community, it can bring alot of really bad karma and magic your way. I sincerely hope that you are not like some covens that are ultra exclusive and snotty. I hope you are not telling people that they have to buy ANYTHING to practice thier faith because we all know that making your supplies works just as well if not better. Also, I realize that your school is based on the beliefs of your coven, but I hope your are not like other religions that teach thier way as the only right way to believe and practice.
In conclusion I would like to say that the Wiccan training system is very different than that of a traditional college. The leangth of training and the types of degrees are different for each tradition.
Please open your eyes and do not be narrow minded. People read your information everyday and look up to all of you for advice and knowledge. Do not waste these gifts and use them for the right reasons. Healthy debate is always good, but not when it is so negative. May the Gods bless you all with the heart to direct your energies toward coming together instead of moving apart.
Many Blessings
Brandi
Merry meet Brandi!
I appreciate your insight and will take heed of your words. Rather than continue this line of discussion I will instead invite you, if you desire, to email me personally for more information regarding Sacred Mists. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you might have as honestly as I can. You might also want to check http://www.witchvox.com website in the near future for a very exciting event offered by Sacred Mists in December of 2006 that will be available to Sacred Mists Students AND visitors! It’s all very hush-hush right now but the Press Release will be going out in the next week!
Brightest blessings,
Shauni Waterdragon
Priestess of the Sacred Mists
shauni@workingwitches.com
Dear Brandi,
I appreciated reading your very fair-minded letter on the subject of Sacred Mists. However, as someone who’s been a practicing witch for over 30 years, probably before some of you were born, there are a few things that I must bring up.
The first thing is the totally artificial scenario of Wiccan/Pagan colleges or universities. The second, and closely second thing, is the incredibly strange assumption that Wiccan degrees can be ‘earned’ through such ‘colleges’ — as if such degrees were about passing exams, completing term papers and the like.
This is nonsense.
To address the first issue, these so called colleges are an extremely recent phenomena, having grown up in just the last 7-8 years. Anyone with computer/internet expertise, a pile of books, and a good scanner can put up such a college, with lessons scanned from books or taken from other websites. Many of these so-called Wiccan colleges are comprised of just that. The teachers may or may not have any more real life learning or experience than the students they teach. The teachers may or may not have any real life credentials to teach or initiate. Basically, they can say anything they want and there’s no way to check the veracity of their statements. Let the buyer beware.
Wicca is an experiential religion. Traditionally, it has been passed down within small groups, utilizing in-person meetings, classes, trainings, ceremonies, and exercises. The teacher was physically present to monitor the mental, emotional, and psychic states of the student, and ascertain progress or problems, and thus offer guidance. The student was being constantly evaluated by means having nothing to do with book-learning and tests. To think that this can be done over the internet is ridiculous. Book learning is just book learning. And, as I said before, the Craft is an experiential religion. It’s about learning to travel the inner worlds, and to feel and work with energies and innerworld beings. It’s not about how many books or lessons you’ve read or written tests you’ve passed or goddesses you can name or cute little ‘formal’ certificates and titles you’ve acquired.
Degrees and certificates offered by these schools are meaningless, useless. These schools exist to make money off their students. Period.
My teachers (and many other teachers of that era) spent untold hours of their own time studying, preparing for training sessions, teaching, monitoring, and helping students — all without any demands whatsoever for financial compensation. They did it as a labor of love, and so the Craft would live on. To see what was once done from such a loving and spiritual place being turned into a financial endeavor sickens me.
To address the second issue, the ‘degrees’ are earned in the inner worlds, and ‘marked’ in the outer worlds. An experienced HP or HPS will be able to make a good guess at when the student is ready to undergo the physical ceremony of initiation, that either ‘marks’ an inner initiation or sparks it into being in a student who is ready. Often lines of power and/or lineages are passed from teacher to student in such ceremonies. To think that degrees are about passing exams based on ‘book learning’ or written lessons is ludicrous, and an insult to the real thing.
Now, that being said, I see nothing wrong with it if someone finds an interesting online course they wish to take to expand their knowledge base. But don’t confuse that with becoming a witch or receiving an initiation. They are very different things.
Practicing perfect love and perfect trust doesn’t mean being a gullible idiot who believes every love’n’peace/whitelight/wiccan rede spouter who comes along claiming they are an arch-high priest or priestess.
Best,
Kerridwyn
I am very glad to see responses from some of you. It is indeed unfortunate that the owner of this blog chose not to respond. No matter. I have only one question. If learning via the internet is not an acceptable form (which is apparently a matter of opinion) and is at best equivalent to book-learning, what should someone do if they don’t have a teacher and can not find one within a 60 mile radius?
One last comment about the degrees. You are right. When it comes to being a witch, degrees and certificates do not matter. The information you learned to earn that piece of paper can only enhance your knowledge of the subject matter. Being a Witch takes so much more than reading a book could ever provide, but it’s a start.
Many Blessings,
Brandi
Hi Brandi,
Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot that can be learned from books and even from online classes. Book learning has its place, as does working on one’s own using good books as a guide. As far as the 60 mile radius thing, I drove about 40 miles each way for classes with my first teachers, and later, drove 65 miles each way for weekly coven work. It’s all in what you want to do, how badly you want to do it, and what you can arrange in your life.
And also, there is validity to the old saying, “When the student is ready the teacher will appear.”
Blessings,
Kerridwyn
Let’s be clear here; there is nothing wrong with learning online. My issue, and the point of the post I made, is that charging for classes or “certification” amounts to a scam. You are paying for an unlicensed, unqualified and unverifiable “school” with a completely arbitrary system to each you things of a highly subjective nature. Even worse, there is little to no information about this small, isolated sect the school practices. So you don’t know if they practice the same things you believe in, do something you disagree with or sacrifice baby ninjas to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The only way to get this information is to pay. To me, that’s the scam. Using the word “degree” or even “certification” insinuates a status that frankly isn’t there. Hell, do they even have a business license? Some states even require special certifications just to call yourself a school. So it’s completely possible they’re operating illegally.
With respect to earlier comments regarding a shop being comparable to this, that’s simply wrong. Aside from the standard utilities, the shop has property insurance, liability insurance, business licenses and inventory overhead to contend with. Each item they sell takes money directly out of their pocket. So a charge for a physical item is fine, more so when it’s completely optional (and yes, everything is optional). The line here is drawn when it comes to information. If a shop sells you a wand and says “Pay me $20 and I’ll tell you how to use it”, would you think that’s fair? How do you know the guy really knows what he’s talking about?
Now, if you are really intrested in learning online, there are thousands upon thousands of resources at your disposal. Everything from chat rooms and bulletin boards to blogs and wikis. For every crooked pagan trying to take advantage of you, there are a thousand willing to teach you for free. Google is your best friend here.
Again, because it’s important to stress, you should never have to pay anyone to grow spiritually. If you want to donate money to someone willing to help you, that’s fantastic. However, anyone who demands payment is out for the money. So if you’re looking for a good starting point to grow your understanding or even find someone to take you under their wing, check out http://www.paganforum.com. It’s a great, totally free community of pagans all willing to help you in any way they can.
Well said, Mr Wilson, and thanks for the link.
Kerridwyn
Just a curious bystander… what do you make of this?
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Registration Contact:
Sacred Mists Wiccan College
seminars.WorkingWitches.com
http://www.workingwitches.com
seminars@workingwitches.com
JANET FARRAR AND GAVIN BONE PARTNER WITH SACRED MISTS ONLINE WICCAN COLLEGE
Offering Virtual Witchcraft Seminars Education to the World
November 13, 2006 — Sacred Mists, a leader in online Wiccan and Witchcraft education, has formed an exclusive partnership with Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, experts in the field of Witchcraft and the Occult, to bring you online, virtual seminars for Witches around the globe.
Through this exciting new partnership, Pagans everywhere are now provided the opportunity to attend the seminars offered by Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone from anywhere in the world. Attending their seminars was an opportunity that previously had been limited only to those who were able to attend their in-person speaking engagements.
Janet Farrar, along with her now-deceased husband Stewart, has been writing, speaking, and teaching on subjects of Witchcraft and the Occult since 1971. Gavin Bone joined them in 1993, and has since worked with them on numerous publications such as The Pagan Path, The Healing Craft, The Complete Dictionary of European Gods and Goddesses and their most recent publication, Progressive Witchcraft. To date they have written eleven books and have been published in the United States and Britain and as far as Brazil, Japan, and the Czech Republic. Collectively, they have over 50 years of experience with Witchcraft, Paganism and the Occult.
Long ago realizing the need for accessible, safe and reputable training, Lady Raven Moonshadow, Arch High Priestess of the Sacred Mists Tradition since 1996, introduced her vision for providing distance education to the online Wiccan community. She continues to be a leader in this venue by once again bringing high quality, never before offered online learning opportunities to the Pagan world.
The first virtual seminar to be presented on December 10th of 2006 carries the same title and concepts as Janet and Gavin’s latest publication, Progressive Witchcraft. Copies of the book are available at Sacred Mists Shoppe (www.SacredMists.com). The next scheduled date is January 7th of 2007, when Janet and Gavin will present “The Group Mind: It’s Creation within a Coven Structure”. The third scheduled seminar will be held on January 28th of 2007, when they will present “Wiccan Cosmology: Connecting with Spirit Guides”. Each of these unique, four-hour virtual seminars will be held in Sacred Mists secure, online seminar venue and seating is extremely limited. Early registration is highly recommended and is now being accepted for all available dates through January of 2007.
Future dates to be announced at seminars.workingwitches.com.
For more information visit:
http://www.WorkingWitches.com
http://www.wicca.utvinternet.com
Or Contact:
seminars@workingwitches.com
Well, here’s what I make of it.
1) Score one for Lady Raven for making a good business deal. And her students will certainly benefit from such good teachers.
2) There is no such thing as an Arch High Priestess. Anyone who knows anything about the history of the Craft knows that. For her to refer to herself as such is, to old timers, like sending up a big red flare that says “phoney.”
3) Sacred Mists didn’t exist in 1996; it came into being in early 2002 with the demise of the College of the Crystal Waterfall, and Raven’s takeover/makeover of that venture.
Interesting discussion! I agree on some points and not on others, but everyone is certainly allowed their own opinion. I am the High Priestess of the physical coven of Grandmother Toad’s Circle of the Magickal Myst, located in San Diego California. There are most certainly many offerings both online and off that do not measure up to what we would perceive as the high standards that teaching should be held to; that is going to happen because Wicca is not regulated nor will it ever be. Caveat Emptor is the order of the day! That being said, it is my opinion that the fact that Janet Farrar (The Witches Bible) is partnering with Lady Raven Moonshadow in this venture brings much credibility to Lady Raven’s school. After all, Janet must know about such things as Wiccan titles and I assume she checked out Sacred Mists before the deal was struck. If she does not have a problem with the way Lady Raven is doing business, that carries a lot of weight with me. I have all of Janet Farrar’s books and use them in my teachings in Grandmother Toad’s. Since these seminars are open to the public (I also saw the announcement post made by Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone on Witchvox a few days ago) I personally would not miss this opportunity to meet Janet Farrar! It’s sorta like getting the opportunity to study with Gerald Gardner, if you could go back in time
On the debate regarding the validity or necessity of degrees, our coven also follows this practice. I would like to submit the following that I did not write, but may clear up a few misconceptions regarding the merit of the degree system in Wicca:
Degree System
One cannot simply explain the deep mysteries that you would experience within Wicca; therefore, our rituals have always been enacted in full, as handed down through our traditional heritage, so that you would actually live the experience in your own way, which is invoked and activated by effective ritual.
As in anything deeply mystical or magickal, the meaning cannot be simply communicated intellectually; it has to work through an analogous process within the individual; a stream of symbols, images and experiences, rather than a mere explanation.
Wiccans today are priestesses and priests, initiates to the Ancient Powers and are never laity. They are secretive in their undertakings and do not proselytize, or spend constant hours merely talking about it. The basic message is that, what is fundamental to Wicca is the actual doing of it and no amount of theorising and intellectualisation can substitute for the actual experience.
Magick and Witchcraft is always looked at as being “rather different” to say the least and has in fact being persecuted throughout history. Therefore, most witches and occultists keep to the ancient tradition of “Keeping Absolute Secret”. Witchcraft has no dogma. It has no “you must believe this” rules and is completely free in one’s inner beliefs and practices. In fact, in groups, ‘like-minded’ people get together and form the covens and that coven is made up of either close friends, or strangers come together in a strong symbiosis of core understanding, who adapt and adopt their own working way, (as long as the basic handed down ancient rituals and initiations are followed closely).
You probably feel that you want the proper guidance and training from an experienced Wiccan, you would be right in holding that belief. There are so many self-made “experts” nowadays and I sigh with wonder where they get their profound expertise and knowledge from. The books nowadays are repetitive in content and have strayed so far from the foundation of Wicca and especially Traditional Craft, it is hardly recognizable, but these sort of books sell to the younger group, who think it is the true thing.
This sort of teaching can only really come from a “teacher”, or “tutor”, called a Mentor, as you become the “Dedicant” in the first steps and the teaching is handed down accordingly, as it has been for generations. It was the way I first learnt and have since taught many over the years. You definitely cannot and will not get the “real thing” from even the better books. They can only hint at the ways and cannot fully explain the unexplainable. It has to be “realized” from within, felt deeply rather than merely read. It is a wonderful “inner journey”, (or microcosm), otherworlds and mixing with the macrocosm and “what’s out there”, and will probably change your life – for the better.
Wiccans today are priestesses and priests, initiates to the Ancient Powers and are never laity. They are secretive in their undertakings and do not proselytize, or spend constant hours, days and months simply and merely talking about it on the net, or in little groups, when invariably no one is properly qualified to discuss the subject in full anyway, and unless they are initiated into a properly seeded coven, it can only be mere supposition on their part anyway. It is a personal and very much a “participant doing” activity and is of course, a way of life. Wicca is “doing” ritual, “doing” inner workings, “doing” magick, “doing” spiritual ceremonies and “following actively” the wheel of the year. It is “not” a talkers religion, it is a “doers” way of life.
To quote a new book recently published, “Unless a witch is willing to take initiation when the “magick calls”, and to “actively”, “consciously”, and with free will, “walk across the line” to live IN the world, but not OF it, and to take the oaths of a priestess or priest, then the line is not crossed. The power will withdraw because it knows the witch is not yet ready. ‘Some other time!’ it seems to say.” There will always be the talkers and the doers in anything in life, but who really gains the real insight and satisfaction of doing, rather than merely copying and reciting someone else’s experiences, perceptions and views. Think about it – it can’t be done!
The basic message is that, what is fundamental to Wicca is the actual doing of it and no amount of theorising and intellectualisation can substitute for the actual experience.
The beauty of Wicca, is that it allows and promotes the inner journey to its fullest by way of ritual and magickal workings in a way of living for the moment. So many people are driven relentlessly to a goal or nebulous tomorrow, (and there’s nothing wrong with having attainable goals in which hard work will ultimately realize), but most people are forgetting that it is often the journey that really counts and is all we’ve actually got, at the present. Living within the arms of Mother Nature is indeed a wonderful way and there’s so many things that we don’t, and probably never can, fully comprehend, but in a personal journey; you may “feel it” deeply within yourself.
If you are not yet initiated into any Craft as yet and you are actually seriously thinking following the “Wicca” ways, (whether in a group – or as a singleton, but nevertheless apart of an official coven), there are a few things you have to know and do first. I don’t know how many books you have read on Wicca, but most Wicca is quite formal in many of its ways (where other ways are free to grow and change), but you have to first begin to learn the “correct ways” in a form of standardized learning, BEFORE you can be advance or ultimately initiated.
However, in saying that, it does not mean that the doors are flung wide open to accept anyone who comes a’knocking. There are strict guidelines and steps to follow and ultimately, it is the various Coven’s own process’ and discussion, that either allows, or does not allow, a seeker to enter.
Many British Traditional Wicca and other traditions that share the same principles mostly have a system of three degrees of Initiation, while others like the Ordo Anno Mundi have seven degrees.
It is both significant and relevant to point out here that Seax Wicca does not have any degree system at all and no oath of secrecy, and to further alleviate any possibility of the abuse of power, the priesthood is chosen democratically by the coven members. In this Saxon based tradition, non-initiates, or cowans, are referred to as Theows (pronounced thoe) and are permitted to attend ritual meetings by invitation and would spend time with the other members of the Coven learning all they could before they were ready for their intuition. A neophyte training to enter a coven is known as a Ceorl (pronounced cawl), and once initiated becomes a Gesith. As there is no degree structure for further advancement, all Saxon Wiccans are therefore known as Gesiths. Once Gesith has been attained, he or she may break away and form a new coven, or start their own coven by doing a simple self-dedication rite before initiating others to join them.
However, to continue on with discussing other main stream Wicca that do follow a degree structure, initiation to the first degree is open to all Witches, governed by what is expressed below. However the second and third degree criteria are quite demanding, and essentially anyone who seeks and becomes 2nd or 3rd degree is responding to a deep inner calling.
Higher degrees aren’t about levels of magickal prowess, power or learning, although that goes with the turf, but 2nd and 3rd degree Witches have people skills, management skills, communication and teaching skills as well as magickal skills.
Those who aren’t well balanced emotionally, psychologically and socially; and who don’t have the appropriate skills; wouldn’t be able to successfully lead a Coven, nor would they be able to fulfill all the requirements that would be needed of them as a dedicated Mentor.
One of the greatest problems that some Covens suffer from is that of having inexperienced or ‘unqualified’ people in leading positions. Knowing all the rituals off by heart and having a dominant or charismatic personality does not alone make for a good High Priestess or High Priest and definitely not a good Mentor.
Because of this fact, Wiccans work within a strong but flexible training, development and assessment structure, and which then ensures that we do not unleash imbalanced, power hungry, exploitive or unstable people on to the community, who appear to have credibility because of their Initiatory degree status.
This superb teaching can only come about when the Dedicants are ready to learn and are taking Wicca seriously enough to devote not only their time, but their life to their chosen religion. It’s all about living Wicca, not learning it in a club like atmosphere.
This Wiccan degree system should provide a Dedicant with a basic but clear understanding of how and why certain things are carried out and how things work within the Craft. One should clearly see from this that the degree system therefore provides a framework of support, and a clearly defined structure to help the Dedicant along the Wiccan path.
For those who seek the Dedicant’s Degree and then later on wish initiation into the 1st degree; the degree system provides a rich source of knowledge and experience to draw from.
Having a suitable Mentor around you of experience and knowledge with ‘pickable brains’ makes life considerably easier and that fact can range from help in memorising chants and invocations to what’s the best wood to use for making a Wand.
As well as all that, a good Coven also provides a collective pool of skills for all members to draw from, ranging from herbal remedies to Tarot readings, to even such things as having access to a wide range of books and experiences shared from one’s Mentor.
If also you have an HPs and HP with experience and good people/life skills, then any conflicts and arguments between people can be quickly resolved without conflict, and you always have someone to turn to for advice and guidance in your life.
We set these criteria in Wicca to ensure that we work with people who truly do want to walk this path. After all Wicca is a path for those who want to walk it, and our question in regard to anyone who seeks to join our circle is very simply, “Would you do this even if you never met another Witch to do it with”?
Dedicant’s Degree
Is for those newly coming into the Craft. As you will see elsewhere in any information regarding Initiation, this brings the new Witch into the Coven, connects them with the Coven group-mind, connects them to the Inner Plane power sources which that Coven and Tradition works with, and Initiates- starts them on their path in a powerful and guided way.
It allows the new Dedicant to walk the path before committing to the first degree and to see if they like it or not and also for the Coven to see if they like the Dedicant and all can get along well together in perfect love and perfect trust. A symbiosis of sorts that goes extremely deep.
There are actually a number of approaches to this Dedicant’s Degree. Some Covens don’t even have a Dedicant’s Degree, but for those that do, some traditions take rather a “Bring ‘em in and let the Goddess sort them out” type of approach, by initiating people very quickly, and before they have gained much knowledge and experience of the Craft and it’s principles.
On the basis that they can and will learn all they need to know thereafter. Others; like the Gardnerian tradition, require that before anyone is initiated to the first degree, they must have gained at least some real knowledge and experience in Wiccan basics, such as chants, circle principles, simple energy work, Coven etiquette, etc. This is generally taken as being a year and a day. The Dedicant’s Degree maintains the required interest and gives the Aspirant a further goal on which to shoot for and while feeling apart of the Coven as a officially Initiated Dedicant and already walking the Wiccan path.
This way they can then learn much more in a shorter time, all the time training and learning with their Mentor of either 2nd or 3rd degree, which gives a much firmer basic foundation on which to continue.
The idea is that the Dedicant’s Degree welcomes the initiate into Wicca and then the First Degree confirms that initiation and commits the Dedicant into a fully-fledged Priest or Priestess.
First degree
Essential Skills for first Degree
This listing details the requirements that are expected of those who are entering the Craft. Many people first set out on the Wiccan path with much of the required principles already part of their lives, while others only have a basic grasp of these principles and practices and that is not what is so important actually. What is important is that they all strive to achieve those required skills and principles to the best of their ability at all times.
The usual period of training before First-Degree initiation is the traditional ‘year and a day’ as already said. We are often flexible in this, if a new candidate has already undergone training in another Coven which has disbanded, or if they’ve had to move away from another Coven, or if they have already developed good skills and resources from being a Dedicant already. It is then that the probationary period can be shortened appropriately.
It must be said here that a major reason why we have a probationary period is to give people sufficient time in which we can all truly get to know each other, no matter how magickally adept any person appears to be. For if they feel they are above such mundane chores as Temple cleaning, or running the occasional coven errand, or if they try dominating other Coveners, or make other consistent breaches of circle etiquette; then naturally we want to be able to ‘weed them out’ before they get in too deep.
The flowing precepts are generally accepted as being criteria for becoming a First Degree Witch.
* Knows and accepts the fundamental Laws and tenets of the Craft and is sincerely dedicated to walking the Wiccan Way in kinship with nature, other Beings of all planes, and all that is, in full awareness and acceptance of the principle of personal responsibility.
* Understands the Coven principles and basic circle etiquette, etc.,
* Has a rapport with the other Coveners (especially with their 2nd/3rd Degree Sponsor)
* Has gathered together the basic Witches tools of, consisting of Athame, Pentacle, Cauldron or Goblet, Wand and has already started a Book of Shadows and a personal Magickal Diary.
* Has learned the “Witches Rune”, and the basic Wiccan Laws.
* Has developed basic visualization skills.
* Can raise Power sufficiently to carry out basic spells and discharge it in total gnosis.
* Can “Ground and centre”. (That is, can gather and hold personal power and sense of connectedness within rituals in a reasonably balanced way), and can ‘still’ the mind to a quiet and focused level in meditation or Pathworking.
* Can enter the twilight - altered state of consciousness in which magic happens.
* Can sense true Power Flow (i.e. senses it if it is there) and is able to channel Power for magickal work (with guidance).
* Is acquainted with the Theory of the Elements, all basic Wiccan theories and principles, and can tap the elemental energies for such as consecrating working tools.
* Has participated in Wiccan rituals and experienced true group rapport.
The intent for first degree Wiccans is to demonstrate an understanding of, and commitment to, the Wiccan way of living, while having the basic skills to be able to participate in Circles rather than merely passively observing.
Second degree
Marks the beginning of a deeper path within the Craft, and thereby and therein acknowledges the commitment, work and effort that the 2nd degree candidate has made following their First-Degree initiation.
Many people never move beyond 1st degree, which is fine, but for those that do want to deepen their knowledge and extend their Craft skills, herbalism, incense making, practical magick, ritual and ceremony, and for those who wish to be much more actively involved in rituals, the running of the Coven and its circles, training and helping new initiates and candidates, and other more challenging areas; do aspire to become 2nd degree.
It must be stressed before we go any further that 2nd and 3rd degrees bring great responsibility. There is a saying that “Rank brings its privileges”, but within the Craft, that is changed to “Rank brings greater responsibilities”.
‘2nd degrees within most Covens are usually involved in mustering up the 1st degrees to get them more organized and more incovlved and stop them from cruising along too much. They are also very necessary in the delegation of necessary tasks to lower degrees, such as cleaning and setting up the temple, laying out of food and similar tasks, but that’s never an excuse for anyone ‘throwing their weight around’. Usually, everyone in the Coven, whatever their rank, pulls their weight (and more) and hardly ever does anyone have to “chase” anyone for anything.
Third degree
Is granted only to those of sufficient experience and knowledge, who are either in a working partnership together and are going to leave their parent Coven to form a new one, or for a small number of individuals who do not have a working Craft partner to form a new Coven with, and of course, who have been Initiates for sufficiently long that they are becoming Elders of the Craft.
This degree is mostly for those (usually couples) who are going to leave their parent coven to form a new one of their own. This process is known as ‘hiving-off’. It is also sometimes granted to those of long Craft experience, but who do not have a working partner of equal experience, and whom are therefore going to stay with their Coven as one of the “Elders”.
In order to receive this degree, candidates must be 2nd degrees of good rapport, good solid experience, and with the necessary people, organisational, social, magickal and ritual skills to be able to run a working Coven in a way that benefits, empowers and nourishes all members thereof.
Within that a broad criteria is that one is generally of sufficient age to have gained the necessary life experiences, remembering the very blatant fact that there is nothing more potentially disruptive of a Coven than having immature people leading it.
The expectant 3rd Degree must have good magickal and energy awareness skills so that they can feel what Coveners are doing with any energy they raise, and also that they can ‘carry’ and encourage those who may be lacking or lagging behind. That is the foundation and the basis for a very well grounded and powerful Coven.
These aren’t skills that are exclusive to those with any parenting experience either, and it also must be said that a few new HPs and HPSs’, with the support of their own HP and HPS can indeed develop the balance needed by sheer hard work until it all comes together finally.
For those who are not going to found covens themselves but who are developing into ‘Craft Elders’, the criteria are much the same, in that Craft Elders need to be fully able to step into the shoes of the HPs or HP on those occasions when they are needed, and to guide and assist the HP and HPS whenever and wherever possible, all without indulging in any petty ‘power-play’ or other egotistical games.
They must also be able to shoulder much of the counseling, advisory and teaching work that would otherwise fall entirely onto the HPs or HP.
The Initiatory “Tree”.
In the Craft there are indeed guidelines and rules as to who can initiate who.
In all circumstances a man must be initiated by a woman, and a woman by a man.
Except in very special circumstances, where a woman can initiate her daughter, or father a son to the First or Second Degree if there is no other woman or man of the appropriate degree to do so.
First degrees can only initiate others in specific circumstances, when…..
As a ’stand-in’ partner to a 2nd or 3rd degree, in an accepted ‘emergency’ situation. (Such as if there is no one of higher degree to do this at the time).
If a coven has ceased to meet and a first degree wishes to elevate a working partner or spouse so that they can work together.
In all circumstances, a first degree can only initiate to the first degree, or in the degree in which they are themselves. They should not be present in a higher degree initiation than their own degree, (as it will spoil their own when eventually taking it).
In all cases; excepting 2 above; any initiations performed by First -Degree Witches must be within an established Coven, and should be under the guidance and supervision of a third degree Witch.
Those of the second degree can initiate to the first and second degrees within a Coven; in accordance with the guidelines for first degrees. Except that a second degree Witch can temporarily take over the running of a Coven if the 3rd degree HPs or HP retires or leaves the Craft, and there is no third degree High Priestess or High Priest to do so.
In which case they should follow the guidelines as at 3 below.
Second degree Witches should only ‘hive-off’ or otherwise found new Covens under very exceptional circumstances, and should seek guidance and peer support from the HPs or HP of another Coven so that they can continue their training and development in a structured and supported way to the third degree. It really is important that only a 3rd Degree run a Coven.
If a first or second degree Witch leaves a Coven for negative reasons they do not have the authority to found a new Coven or initiate people in order to form a new Coven.
These guidelines and rules are not dogmatic or inflexible, and their sole purpose is to help the Craft grow and be strong with a similar and strong foundation to all Covens within Gardnerian Wicca.
If you are considering joining a Coven, would you want that Coven to be led by someone of little experience and with very low levels of expertise and Wiccan knowledge? Or would you prefer that to be with people of deep experience and high levels of expertise and wisdom? It’s really quite an easy question to answer….
~ Found on the internet
Brightest Blessings!
Grandmother Toad
Greetings Grandmother Toad!
Blessings,
The information and guidelines you posted ring true to what I know,and are quite good. I must respectfully disagree, however, that Janet & Gavin’s partnering with Sacred Mists implies anything positive about Sacred Mists. Residing in another country altogether, it’s quite possible they simply don’t know anything at all about SM or it’s owner or the history of the school, and were simply responding to a nice business offer SM made to them. I do respect Janet & Stewart’s body of work throughout the years, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with every choice Janet makes.
Kerridwyn
I will reserve judgment of this “partnership” until I hear more from those feeding me information from the inside. On the surface, however, this doesn’t exactly legitimize the rest of the business model here.
Though, I’m glad I’m not the only one who raised an eyebrow at her ever expanding title. So it’s now “Arch High Priestess”? When did Kim Jong Ill take over the school?
All of this has been quite fascinating. I would like to shed a bit of light on the subject at hand, as I was an insider from the very beginning.
First of all, “Lady Raven” calls herself an Arch High Priestess. When she took over the college from Crystal Waterfall, she had not even received her 1st Degree yet. What gave her the right to move herself up the ladder? Not only does she falsely claim to have achieved her Degrees, she also takes credit for bringing the college to the internet! In her press release on November 6th, she states:
“Long ago realizing the need for accessible, safe and reputable training, Lady Raven Moonshadow, Arch High Priestess of the Sacred Mists Tradition since 1996, introduced her vision for providing distance education to the online Wiccan community. She continues to be a leader in this venue by once again bringing high quality, never before offered online learning opportunities to the Pagan world. ”
Excuse me, but WHO introduced her vision for providing distance training to the Wiccan community? Certainly not Raven…it was her predecessor, Lady Moon Willow. And this is a “never before offered opportunity”? Please. How many other Witch Schools are there on the web? This is hardly an original idea.
Lady Moon Willow turned the school over to Raven because she could not give it the attention it needed and take care of her family at the same time. Raven promised her that she would turn it into something wonderful, so she believed her and gave it over lovingly. To say that Lady Moon Willow had “stolen” her courses and posted them for profit is entirely inaccurate. In fact, she was given the entire school on a CD Rom by a man called SnowWolf, who claimed to have written everything himself and wanted her to use it in an online college. It may have been discovered later that SnowWolf was not the original author of some of these things (I still don’t know that to this day), but Lady Moon Willow had no malicious intent or knowledge of such things.
I just wanted to give the other side of the coin, since I have intimate knowledge of what really happened. Not everyone tells the truth, and some people remain silent for far too long.
Hi all,
This is all quite fascinating. I was a student and at one time, one of those who corrected the lessons at Crystal Waterfall. I got complaints from the other students because I corrected so strictly and demanded very detailed explanations from them. I did not make the transition over to Sacred Mysts because of the financial burden it would have brought to my family.
I’ve used the knowledge that I gained through the CWF classes to teach students in my local community quite successfully. I was working on my third degree when Crystal Waterfall closed… but I have been able to teach and help others through the 1st and 2nd degrees in my local community.
Since then, I helped to found a local non-profit pagan community organization, I’m the treasurer of our local Pagan Pride Day, a co-hostess of the Kalamazoo Pagan Community Brunch, and the organizer of the local Witches Night Out. Several of our organizations are listed in the new “Drawing Down the Moon” by Margot Adler. I’m also the PIO for Cherry Hill Seminary, a different kind of pagan education online school.
My question to everyone at large is this? If an online trad school or college wanted legitimacy, what would it have to offer? I strongly believe in local elders or degree-holders being available as teachers and mentors… but folks have to start somewhere and there are not legitimately degree’d elders and/or leaders in every community. If there were regional groups for an online tradition, would that be an answer?
From my own experience, I have to say that the online classes that I took gave me a good basic foundation of Wicca and certainly started me on my own path in our community.
Susan
To recap some of the above..
“First of all, “Lady Raven” calls herself an Arch High Priestess.”
- Within the Sacred Mists Tradition, an Arch Priestess (or Arch Priest) has trained and initiated at least 5 High Priestesses and/or High Priests within the Tradition and has at least two hived covens. This has been her title within the tradition for 5 years and has been posted on the website’s main page for as many years.
“When she took over the college from Crystal Waterfall, she had not even received her 1st Degree yet.”
- This statement is wholely innaccurate. She had received her 3rd Degree from the Coven of the Golden Skye in Northern California MANY years before ever coming in contact with Lady Moon Willow. She then began and led Sacred Mists as an offline Coven which was actively practicing and meeting well before the online introduction of Sacred Mists.
“…she also takes credit for bringing the college to the internet!”
- This statement is correct. Lady Raven brought Sacred Mists methodologies, teachings and path system to the online community. Crystal Waterfall was not part of this equation, but students of Crystal Waterfall were invited to “grandfather” into the new program, if they wished. Over 2/3 of the Crystal Waterfall students did not continue.
“And this is a “never before offered opportunity”? Please. How many other Witch Schools are there on the web? This is hardly an original idea.”
- Live, online Witchcraft and Wicca seminars are a never before offered online opportunity. This is what the statement is in reference to. However, that being said, there are indeed many schools online and all are unique in their OWN right and to consider them replications of one another in any fashion is entirely wrong. Each one stands tall in their efforts to bring more accessibility, training and knowledge to those who seek. Not everyone will attend one or the other, but they all serve a purpose and they are all serving their calling in whatever way works for their path and the path of those who are involved with them. Kudos to each and every one of them.
“Hell, do they even have a business license? Some states even require special certifications just to call yourself a school. So it’s completely possible they’re operating illegally”
- Yes, they have a business license, resale license for the store and are operating entirely above board according to their state and federal laws, 100%. How do I know? I asked for the license numbers, and then did my own research. They are solid with all organizations, both in license and reporting and are current in their federal and state taxes, reporting as a business.
The bottom line here is this: Sacred Mists provides a service to the Wiccan community and many good ones at that. If you disagree with their methods, that is entirely your opinion and one you’re entitled to have. Not everyone shares your opinion. Be okay with that. If you do not like the group, do not participate in the group. That seems a simple thing. There are many, many groups both online and off available to all who seek. Not every group is going to synch with every person. Each tradition has its own methodologies, teachings, path and content. Each one doing its own thing, but the vast majority having a similar ‘core’ that is true for all Wiccan trainings. They are no different. So find one that works for you and allow the others to walk their own path and find the spiritual home where the feel most comfortable. We should all be so fortunate.
As far as stating commentary coming from “an insider”, I am not quite sure that calling oneself an insider would be accurate as that would mean you would have been involved with Sacred Mists for the past 5 years. Rest assured, they are not one iota like Crystal Waterfall was, and the students who were once subjected to that constant mess of a school are very thankful for the change. Crystal Waterfall, while having its merits, also was riddled with constant access problems, illegal raffles that were rarely fulfilled, an incomplete 2nd degree, no third degree, no complete herbalism class, I could go on. Lady Moon Willow was over her head and asked Lady Raven to either take the college as she was closing its doors, or the students would just have to find somewhere else to go. That is a quote. Beyond that exchange, lets not forget the hundreds of people were left hanging after giving Lady Moon Willow money for merchandise through her “witches R Us” store, subsequently receiving the response after her very sudden departure of “well, I can either give you your money back or pay for my child’s diapers.” Needless to say, most backed down and just ate the loss. I think that the former Crystal Waterfall’s students, wherever they have landed, are probably better off these days. From the sound of Susan’s post, I’d say that’s very true. She has a beautiful attitude reflective of one walking this sacred of paths, as does Brandi’s and Grandmother Toad’s posts as well. They recognize the differences in paths, recognize that we should be holding together, not striving for Witch Wars. Those have gone on far too long and frankly, every group or individual that has ever stepped their toes into the spotlight has undergone their share of attacks. Fair, they are not. But when it happens it tends to show those in the community that the group is on the right track.
Here’s the reality, folks. It comes down to the recommendation for ANY school, regardless of content or venue: Do your homework. Check out what’s being taught, who’s teaching it and ask for some references. Ask to talk to some of the people who are involved with the school you’re interested in and if it all seems to jive with you then take the plunge and see what happens. Otherwise, this discussion is relatively futile and subjective without any basis of merit and completely based on heresay. Just let them be, along with all the other online schools out there, and let them do the positive things they are doing for the community the way they see fit to do it. They aren’t hurting anyone… they’re helping a lot of people in a lot of ways. Good for them and honestly, good for us… the entirety of the pagan community. They have my support, as does Cherry Hill Seminary, Witch School and any number of the reputable and well-known online pagan schools available. They need yours as well.
Merry Meet my Brother and Sister Wiccans!
I have to say that I am very disappointed at the degree of negativity that seems to fill this discussion. I must say that I am biased. I have been with Sacred Mists since the change over from Crystal Waterfall. The one that said that Sacred Mists didn’t exist before 2002, isn’t entirely true. Lady Raven did run a coven by the name of Sacred Mists long before the beginning of the College. I know that there will always be people who will look down upon Lady Raven and the College and honestly, you have the right to your opinion. I won’t try to change that or anybody here who chooses to believe it. However, I’d like to impart my experience with the College. I was a solitary practitioner since I stumbled upon Wicca in 1996. I tried learning from books but found I lacked the discipline and structure needed to expand upon my studies. Since joining Sacred Mists, I have learned many topics and skills that I possibly wouldn’t have otherwise. I have thankful for everyday that I am in the Mists because it is a loving place to learn and explore your spiritual self. Brightest of Blessing to you all, even those of you who sneer at something I hold so dear.
Love and Light always,
Willow Raevynwood
Dear Insider,
The source material for the lessons in the Crystal Waterfall course came from all over the internet. At least the first degree lessons did. At one point in time I saw some website that exposed this, and gave the source of darn near everything, but that site seems to be gone now, and my memory of the details isn’t that great. I do remember that a lot of the course material came from a site called paganlibrary dot com’s reference pages, and a lot came from a Goddess Spirituality 101 course done by Red Deer and Elenya years ago and that is still online . And tids and tads from elsewhere. The point being, the lessons weren’t original to Lady Moonwillow (LMW) - despite her claiming on her site that all the course materials were written by her and her coven./circle members. And whoever the mysterious SnowWolf is, he didn’t write them either.
What CW was offering was FREE stuff taken from other sites, bundled up as lessons and SOLD. Then LMW passed the college on to Raven, who continued selling the same FREE stuff; at least for a while; and might still be for all I know. Her outline is the same; whether the contents are the same I don’t know.
And here’s something else I found interesting (archive dot org being a very interesting website). CW College had an earlier version of lessons prior to ones Raven took over. The outline for these was identical to the outline found on a Fellowship of Isis Lyceum web-course, right down to the four degrees offered, the mention of the Fellowship of Isis, and the mention of going to Chicago to receive one’s degrees. At CW, the complete four degree course cost close to $600. This course later disappeared from the site and was replaced by the (much less expensive) one that Raven eventually took over.
Shortly after Raven acquired CW’s course I was amused by an email on her list (this is before it was closed to all but students) wherein she stated that Sacred Mists was “almost identical” to Crystal Waterfall, as she’d been “trained and ordained” by Lady Moonwillow after studying for 17 years. If she actually meant she’d studied with LMW for 17 years that would have been interesting, as 17 yrs prior Lady Moonwillow would have been 8 yrs old! Also of interest is that Raven had said (as is noted by “A Real Insider” as well) that when she got the CW materials from LMW the third degree material was either non-existent or barely begun. So if there was no 3rd degree material, how did Raven study with LMW and ger her 3rd ?
Not too long after saying she’d been ordained by LWM, she mentioned on the Witchwars list (where she’d come to defend herself) that she’d been initiated into a coven in her area called the Golden Sky coven 7 years before (and after 10 yrs of study) by someone named Lady Igraine, who could “trace her Witchcraft lineage back countless generations.”
My thought on this was - well, if she’d studied for 10 years, had a real life initiation into a real life coven by real life HPS with a fabulous lineage, why on earth would she need or want to go after one in an online college run by a 25 yr old?
” if she’d studied for 10 years, had a real life initiation into a real life coven by real life HPS with a fabulous lineage, why on earth would she need or want to go after one in an online college run by a 25 yr old?”
Because it was available on the internet and to broaden your scope and experience in all areas of your belief is important. Reaching out in every way, expanding your knowledge and growing in the Craft is something that is taught at every stage and step. There is no harm in that, and that is exactly what she did. Isn’t that a personal choice for one to make? As a matter of fact, this type of exploration continues to be highly encouraged within SM. Now, back to Raven, she had no idea that Moon Willow was 25 years old. She never thought to ask someone’s age. Is that so surprising? I certainly don’t go around asking people how old they are, regardless of venue. I remember well how she was shocked to learn Moon Willow’s age. Raven was only around Crystal Waterfall for, at the very best, a few short months (not 17 years, I know its hard to believe but Raven did have a life, and followed her path, long before CWF and SM’s online program came into being), watching all of the insanity and even offered to help Moon Willow fix the problems she was having. She helped do the store website for Moon Willow and helped with countless other technical and design tasks to the best of her ability. LMW confided in her and that is how she came to tell Raven, after yet another enire crash of her school website accesses and overwhelming numbers of people knocking on her door demanding their due for money paid (which LMW had already spent and could not deliver on), “Do you want to take on all of this? If not, I’m just closing the doors and they’ll have to figure out another place to go. I can’t handle this anymore.” Raven told her clearly that she was an ordained 3rd Degree Priestess in another tradition and Crystal said that she would need to test her knowledge and subsequently initiate her as a 3rd Degree in CW’s tradition so that she could “take over CW”, if that was what she wanted to do. Raven had a big decision on her hands and after her decision was made to try to see what she could do with it and after all was said and done, she decided that she would not continue CW but would bring Sacred Mists, and her existing Tradition and path system, online and allow people to grandfather over to that program from the defunct and dropped-on-its-head CW, if they desired. An exhorbitant amount of work was done on her part to try and help the thousands of people left stranded by that nightmare. I commend her. She helped a lot of people and continues to do so to this very day.
Kerridwen, you’re clearly out for blood here… or something. You sound like you’re on a witch hunt, and its just perplexing as to exactly what you’re trying to accomplish here that’s in any way positive. I think its time you figure out what you’re wanting instead of trying to break down something, and someone, positive in the pagan community. It’s ridiculous frankly, and I think it needs to stop. Take a look at yourself and what you’re doing. Whatever transpired between those two women is none of your business. You’re not even a student! Why do you care? What should be looked here at is that SM is doing alot of great things in the community for a lot of people. The SM school and offerings are helping people, not hindering. The people within the school are learning, growing and gaining in their spiritual (and I’ll add, personal) lives. Is everyone going to be happy with SM? No… Is everyone happy with everything? To set that standard would be more ridiculousness. She’s doing a good job. She’s setting the right example. She’s leading as a good HPs should. She’s growing with the evolution of the Craft, as we all will need to. She’s providing a venue for that. Want to knock her for that? Good grief. Read Progressive Witchcraft by Farrar and Bone… read Weaving the Web by M. Macha Nightmare. Let’s continue forward through Wicca’s evolution, and allow them to continue to do the good things they are doing instead of trying to tear them down. I don’t know about you, but destruction and perpetuating anger, angst and negativity is not part of my path and last time I checked it wasn’t the path of anyone who was truly walking the path of Wicca. If they weren’t doing well for people, you’d know it. No one would be there. All I’ve heard from current students is that they are happy there. Oh sure, we’ve heard from a few self-proclaimed ex-students stating they were kicked out, and as a Real Insider I know the drill on them too - from the inside having watched them and their antics that have no place within SM - and let me just say that they are doozies in their own right but as I don’t like to “go there”, I’m opting to ignore them entirely, as they deserve, and let them go their way.
You’re all speaking out of “I don’t know”.. “maybe”.. “as far as I heard”… those aren’t things to base an argument on. So let SM, CWF, and any of the other schools and covens BE. Raven is doing a damn good job and she’s being a true leader in the pagan community. Who cares who she was trickled down from! Does it REALLY matter? I think it matters far more to learn who the person is by seeing their accomplishments and from those the person touches in a positive way. I’d say that marks thousands of people at this point who would say they have been touched positively by SM. To dredge up rocky beginnings is just a means of trying to tear down what has proven to be a very positive thing. So let’s leave it at that and commend them for all of the good they ARE doing instead of dribbling on about things that are again utter heresay, riddled with pettiness, outright lies and far reaching assumption. Walk your own path. No one is getting in your way and I find it exceedingly wrong for you to get in the way of others or to judge them for theirs.
Out for blood? No, just out for truth…..
Because it was available on the internet….
Thank you; you’ve just made my point. Someone with a real life initiation from a real life coven, particularly an initiation into a hereditary tradition, would have no interest whatsoever in an online school offering online initiations, because they’d know that such things are absurd; initiations cannot be done online.
…and to broaden your scope and experience in all areas of your belief is important. Reaching out in every way, expanding your knowledge and growing in the Craft is something that is taught at every stage and step.
In general, yes. This is why pagans generally have well-stocked bookshelves. But ‘reaching out in every way’ — not really.
Raven is doing a damn good job and she’s being a true leader in the pagan community. Who cares who she was trickled down from! Does it REALLY matter? I think it matters far more to learn who the person is by seeing their accomplishments and from those the person touches in a positive way. I’d say that marks thousands of people at this point who would say they have been touched positively by SM. To dredge up rocky beginnings is just a means of trying to tear down what has proven to be a very positive thing.
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds to me like what you’re saying is that it shouldn’t matter if Raven is being untruthful about her lineage, her tradition, where she got her lessons, or any of it, because lots of people are happy with her school, and that means she’s doing a good thing. Is that really what you’re saying? If so, I am in amazement that truth carries such little value for you.
Look, here’s the deal. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Craft is not to be sold. It is not a BUSINESS….“Traditional Wiccan Degrees” and lineages cannot be purchased, or earned online. Got that?
Looked at from a TRADITIONAL rather than NEW AGE point of view, it’s really very simple. Not everything in the world is a product to be bought and sold. Wicca is one of those things. I don’t know why this is so hard for some people to understand.
A wiccan store? Fine. Informative classes? Fine. Mentors tutoring students for a fee? Fine. Cosy chatrooms for a fee? Fine. Initiations earned by paying $25 registration and $20/mo for 12 months? Not fine. Chatroom initiations? Absurd.
Earlier you advised people to do their homework, to “check out what’s being taught, who’s teaching it and ask for some references.” That’s good advice. But no real information about the courses is offered on the Sacred Mists website, only brief course outlines (First Degree & Herbalist) which are nearly identical to that of Crystal Waterfall. So how are people to ascertain exactly what the courses are like? How are people to ascertain what SM’s unique teachings, methodologies, and path systems are, since no details are given? How is one to determine how SM is different from its predecessor, CW? How are people to figure out exactly what kind of a tradition Sacred Mists IS, since the only description is a vague reference to Celtic and Faerie? Are seekers expected to get those answers by simply asking all the happy students?
And as to references, I’m unaware that Raven has offered any to be checked.
Now, back to Raven, she had no idea that Moon Willow was 25 years old. She never thought to ask someone’s age. Is that so surprising?
Well, presuming Raven was looking at LMW’s website, which she must have been since she was helping her with it, she must have noticed that LMW made no secret of her age, stating on her networking page that she was born July 8, 1976. Did Raven just miss that page?
To conclude — No, I’m not out for blood. Nor am I on a witch hunt. I simply an old-fashioned witch, with a long time and lots of experience in the Craft. And I get upset when I see it being merchandised. Because it’s a spiritual path, you know?
I think, Kerridwen, you just need to go your own way and let others go about theirs. That’s the bottom line. You don’t know Raven, you’ve not tried to get to know her. You’ve not asked her directly anything that you’re asking here, which btw is some obscure website on some obscure person’s personal blog that clearly rips everyone he comes in contact with (just look at the front page and move yourself back through the posts and you’ll find it to be true). Perhaps that’s the type you align yourself with, but for me? I’m here because you are dragging through the mud someone I know personally, having been trained by her offline. I have known for a very, very long time. Far beyond CW, far beyond any online presence. Yes, a Real Insider. I will tell you right now that what you are presenting here is far-reaching assumption and, in my areas, flat out lies.
And why? I’ve wondered, so I came to find out and guess what! You’ve shed light on it for me, so that you. All of this because it pisses you off that she’s attached a price tag to the immense amount of time, effort and finances that it takes to run a school such as this, and to bring the offerings that she’s brought to the pagan community as a whole. She’s made available to the world what YOU think cannot be made available in this venue AND, to top it all off, she asks that everyone that is involved remit their fair share to the operation and growth of the effort. Wow.. that’s just terrible, isn’t it?? I guarantee you that if she was independently weathly she’d be funding this out of her own pocket but guess what, she’s not and she’s brought this to the world at the cheapest she is able and GOOD FOR HER.
You don’t agree with the methods. Fine. You don’t agree with what’s being done. Fine. You don’t like how things are being run. Fine. No one is asking you to. Others feel differently, and had you attended the Farrar/Bone seminar on Saturday you would have found that they stated clearly that they think online rituals ARE VALID AND VERY POWERFUL. They clearly stated that online ritual is powerful and valid. Now, you’ve clearly stated that you don’t agree with “every decision Janet makes”. Well, there you go… you disagree even more with their stance. Evolve or don’t, that is your choice. No one is pushing you onto the evolution train and no one is forcing you to get off your wagon, either.
Now, onto your statements…
“Someone with a real life initiation from a real life coven, particularly an initiation into a hereditary tradition, would have no interest whatsoever in an online school offering online initiations, because they’d know that such things are absurd; initiations cannot be done online.”
Untrue… utterly and entirely. How presumptuous of you. Since when did you get a license to speak for every single witch out there that may be wanting to add to their training through whatever methods of study they deem appropriate for THEIR PATH? For the record you have no idea what Raven was wanting when she went into CW, do you? Pure speculation on your part (again), and entirely wrong at that (again).
“…and to broaden your scope and experience in all areas of your belief is important. Reaching out in every way, expanding your knowledge and growing in the Craft is something that is taught at every stage and step.
In general, yes. This is why pagans generally have well-stocked bookshelves. But ‘reaching out in every way’ — not really.”
So what you’re saying is that people need only to have bookshelves and an in-person teacher, and that’s it? To reach out any further to explore new ways of thinking, new ways of doing things, reaching out beyond anything they’ve done before is something they shouldn’t do? And, according to you, there are limits to this exploration and there’s some sort of criteria as to what is acceptable or not in your eyes? Sorry, not in my world. But that’s okay… you’ve got your beliefs and path and I have mine and from the looks of the growin online population I don’t think that I’m alone in that path.
“Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds to me like what you’re saying is that it shouldn’t matter if Raven is being untruthful about her lineage, her tradition, where she got her lessons, or any of it, because lots of people are happy with her school, and that means she’s doing a good thing. Is that really what you’re saying? If so, I am in amazement that truth carries such little value for you.”
Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding you, but you seem to think you know what the truth is here and in fact you have no idea. You seem to be spouting what little you’ve tried to piece together on what seems to be some detective tirade you’ve gone off on to try and discredit someone that has done nothing but good in our community. So far, nothing you’ve said has any basis of merit. Raven has not been untruthful about anything. Not about her lineage, not about where lessons originally came from, not about her path, not about her training, not about her tradition… have I covered everything yet?… and you have NOT ONE SHRED OF PROOF that she has. Hence why I said witch hunt. If you’re an old-fashioned witch, then you’d know the signs and symptoms of one so this must ring pretty true for you. Clearly, that’s exactly what we’re talking about here.
Now, what I was referring to in my previous statement (and what you clearly do not wish to hear) is that it shouldn’t matter who a leader in our community has trickled down from. Does lineage really matter? Not in my mind. Does this mean that I’m saying Raven “lied”. Absolutely NOT. I personally KNOW she didn’t and you, dear, have no clue. Now, I’ve met some real jerks that claim to have descended from Gerald Gardner himself, some who claim to have trained with Starhawk who couldn’t lead if you pointed them in the right direction and gave them a script, and I’ve met some really amazing people who’ve got more knowledge of the craft, its spiritual and magickal basis and had the ability to positively lead a group of pagans than I’ve seen from you here thus far. Lineage, in my opinion, is an archaic and dying “credential”. Don’t believe me? Revisit this page in about 10 years and see if what I’m saying true. This might be another thorn in your side. While I respect everyone’s time in gaining the awakening of their spiritual self, I don’t think credentials are in any way some kind of passport to being a good leader in the community. A true leader and a solid witch is shown in deed over time and NOT in the lineage she/he claims to be decended from. You can disagree with me on this point if you wish as this is my opinion only but one I know is shared by many.
“Look, here’s the deal. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Craft is not to be sold. It is not a BUSINESS….“Traditional Wiccan Degrees” and lineages cannot be purchased, or earned online. Got that?”
Again, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. No one is selling degrees online. The fees paid for tuition is incredibly NOMINAL and the amount of effort that goes into all of the students in intense. There are paid employees, office space, taxes, accounting, payroll expenses, and a myriad of other things that you are not in any way considering. This is not an attempt to be a small coven of 5, but to bring this path and teachings to ALL around the world. You may think this is an undertaking that can be done without tuition, without any monetary exchange whatsoever. If so.. please Kerridwen, you do it. I’ll be the first to sign up and be trained free, by you. I’ll even have 5,000 other people knocking on your doorstep wanting attention, and now, because we all need it and all want it. Oh? You can’t. Won’t? Oh bother… wherever shall they go. Ah yes, online groups all over the internet! I wonder how much time and effort it’ll take them to sift through all the bogus, self-made people sitting around those chatrooms? Or how many people are going to find the time to train someone who says “please help me to be a witch”. You know as well as I do that often those requests get ignored, or the person is simply directed to start reading and ask questions as they go along and post them to the group. Not the best scenario for the seeker. Some may find exactly what they’re looking for in that scenario. Not all. Not all will find what they’re looking for at SM. Not every path leads exactly where one wants to go. Its up to the individual to find the one that suits their own.
Now, funny you should say this “presuming Raven was looking at LMW’s website, which she must have been since she was helping her with it, she must have noticed that LMW made no secret of her age, stating on her networking page that she was born July 8, 1976. Did Raven just miss that page?”
Why do I bring this out? Because clearly you must have missed the fact that Raven has the 2nd Degree outline on her site and had noted her Arch Priestess title on the site for the past many years. Or did you just miss those pages? What I’m getting at here is that the point you’re making has no basis. No, she didn’t see it and was surprised to find that she was 25. She didn’t do the site, she tried to help with the problems she was having and helped with Moon Willow’s store. And no, you didn’t see the 2nd Degree outline that’s clearly on the Sm website, nor did you note her title within SM that’s been there for years. Does that discredit you somehow? I don’t think so (at least not on that point), and it doesn’t discredit Raven either. Did human oversite fly out the window somewhere along the line in this conversation?
“And as to references, I’m unaware that Raven has offered any to be checked.”
Don’t you see how ridiculous you sound, Kerridwen? Unaware that she has offered any to be checked? Good griend, you’ve never asked her! You’ve never bothered! All you’ve bothered to do is bash her on this forum and frankly, for one who claims to be an old-fashioned with a long time and lots of experience in the Craft, I would like to recommend you go back to the chapter where you look within and start learning a little care, humanity, peace, love and understanding. Witches are healers, not those who harm. Witches don’t seek to break down, they seek to build, grow and mend.
To be perfectly honest Kerridwen, your arguments are your own and I appreciate your position on them but do not agree with them. Most importantly I don’t agree with your stance on Raven or SM. For the record, you don’t speak from experience with this. You only speak in heresay and I really think you need to let go of this whole battle and continue on your path as an old-fashioned witch and allow those who are moving in a new direction with the Craft to do so. The evolution of this beautiful and empowering path is well underway and we are seeing a lot of positive things come out of it. Wide acceptance is something we’ll continue to work on and through every means of outreach we will bring the Craft to more and more people. No more is it something that you can’t have and attain unless you have a safe, in-person community to explore in. No more is learning and earning your degrees something that you have to find a local HP/HPs for (and good luck with that in the vast majority of places). You may not agree with it, but here we are. I wish you the very best and hope that you’ll cut Raven some slack. She really doesn’t deserve this and, as an aside, don’t you have anything better to do? Not only everything you’ve stated unfounded, untrue and without merit, its really falling on deaf ears because the reality is that we’re arguing about something that neither you nor I will end up agreeing on. We’ve said what we believe and I guess we end it here. At least maybe on that point we can agree. Namaste.
Lets spend a moment thinking about that, shall we? If degrees are not being sold, why the need to defend a “tuition”? Why, as this almost year old post pointed out, was there an advertising campaign through Google’s AdWords advocating an “Wiccan Degree Program”? Sounds to me as if someone’s been drinking from the company kool-aid.
Honestly, if you’re content supporting an unethical operation using misleading terms such as “Wiccan Degree Program” and demanding payment for sharing freely available knowledge, then there is little left to be said. You believe in the commercialization of the Pagan faith while I others of us put our support behind the tradition of free exchange. Your reward is monetary, ours is the experience. Some follow the Silver Ravenwolf methodology of nothing is free, others forge ahead with that of Scott Cunningham and an “open to the willing” approach.
As far as Raven goes, I truly feel sorry for her in the same way I pity those forced into petty larceny to keep their family fed. I wish her life experiences would have pointed her towards a more positive path. I do hope that one day, she stops charging the gullible and instead, join the thousands of other knowledgeable Pagans and free offer this information to the willing free of charge.
I agree with Juvenall; some follow the adage that nothing in life is free, and some are happy with the open to the willing approach. I will say two things however. In my opinion, Raven doesn’t need anyone’s pity nor is it seemly for one pagan to judge another. There are many who would agree with me that she is a credit to the Wiccan Community, people who actually know and work with her. Secondly, it has been my life experience that you get what you pay for. Humans have this inborn reasoning that something that costs nothing is worth nothing. This is why we don’t just hand money to our children but instead give them allowances in exchange for chores. The issue of charging or not charging generally comes up in divination as it was once thought that to accept money somehow taints the gift. In modern times, it is generally thought that a fair exchange of goods and services is permissible because witches have to support themselves just like everyone else.
I find it ironic that Juvenall’s wish is for Raven to take a more positive approach since his entire blog and every subject within is formulated in a negative attack mode. To each his own, I suppose.
Let’s just agree to disagree, shall we?
Brightest blessings for a happy holiday season.
I and my wife were both kicked out of Sacred Mists. we were also threatened with a lawsuit for Posting the truth. This “College” has appeared multiple times under different names. I know for a fact that Both the FBI and Interpol came to my house investigating Wheeler. For Internet Fraud. I don’t know what happened after that. After calling their bluff with the IP traced Fake Lawyer. I figured it wasn’t worth it. I have found more crooks in Wicca, Beware of any college. For Kicks I tried to go to the website (yes your IP blocking is still working RAVEN) anyway you don’t need to respond to this as I don’t plan on checking in here again. There is a website that has all the course content and where it was stolen from if you look for it. Good luck!
Merry Meet,
I am First Degree Student of the College of the Sacred Mists. I have been an online student there for almost a year now. I have attended online Esbats & Sabbats; chatted with some wonderful people(some of the most genuinely kind & caring people around, I might add!); and I have also had access to all the information that Sacred Mists has available to students regarding every aspect of Wiccan studies.
I have ordered many items through the Shoppe, & my experience has always been excellent! My stuff was reasonable priced & it arrived promptly! And with regard to the tuition…I also find the price reasonable. I have access to a gigantic wealth of info; I can participate in Ritual; I have met numerous kind & genuine people that truly care about others; My Brothers and Sisters of the Mists have helped me several times through Depression; the death of my Doodah(my Dad); health problems & family issues.
For me, Sacred Mists is a safe haven. I feel like I had ‘come home’ the first time I stumbled onto their site…and that feeling was magnified when I became a student. Since joining the Mists, I have become a more confident & outgoing person. I am painfully shy, and for most of my life I had major issues just trying to make simple conversation with people that I just met. Now, I’m posting my poetry, thoughts, & dreams on the message boards without fear of persecution or ridicule. All the students & Student Council Members & most especially Lady Raven are thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate, and truly caring people. They are the finest examples of human beings, and believe me, I have encountered many people throughout my life and the majority have been rude, intolerant, cruel, and thoughtless. I had lost hope in the human race as a whole, but finding the College of the Sacred Mists had brought my faith in humanity back again.
You can make of my comments what you will, but I just wanted to set the record straight…..Sacred Mists is a legitimate Wiccan College. Lady Raven is a wonderful High Priestess, full of light, compassion, caring, and wisdom. The Student Council at the Mists are all truly knowledgable, & compassionate beings. And the students who attend the College are people who deserve the the name…human beings.
I am just your average 30 year old woman. I have no titles or fancy college degrees(either in the metaphysical or the mundane world). I am a Pagan- a Wiccan- and A Witch. I love the Goddess and God in all their Forms, and have a deep respect and love for all nature. I also have a love for all human beings..and I try to think the best of everyone…even when they do their worst. I just hope that all the people who posted horrible things about Lady Raven & Sacred Mists would take the time to really talk with her. Or go out on a limb and just enroll in Sacred Mists-I believe that you will not regret it. Who knows….you might even find it to be an enlightening experience!
Blessings to all,
Crowshadow0(October Bozarth)
Okay … Wiccan Colleges … its obvious to me that some people work better in a coven (or with a mentor, face to face) whilst others work better on their own. additionally, some people cant commit the time to a coven, whilst others may not be able to find a group in their area. Others might be disabled, and cant leave their homes.
So then no.1, theres a need for this service. Courses allow anyone with a PC to explore the Craft and develop spiritually.
No.2 - i dont think you can condemn someone for training the craft in their own way, nor for charging for it. Im a High Priestess from England, and i know how much easier it can be to with some trainees to communicate training through the written word, rather than face to face. I also know how much time and effort it takes to teach people the craft - to charge for your time is to believe that what you are teaching is worth it and extra funds help you pay for paper, photocopying, and your time. Training itself should be selfless but the time you spend is worth someone paying for. and if a trainee is looking for a ‘free meal’ maybe then they are not as dediated as they could be.
no.3 - “why on earth would she need or want to go after one in an online college run by a 25 yr old?” well this seems a little ‘ageist’ coming from so called enlightened wiccans on this page! Im not sure how things are done where you all are, but here in England Witches are respected for their dedication to their training and hard work, not their years. I began running my own coven at 25 after working towards my 3rd degree for 9 years, that was 9 years of intense and wonderful training by several well respected HP’s and HPS’s.
no.4, and finally - Good for her for putting this course together!! And if the college chooses to charge for their hard work, then good for them, too. Whether you agree with the method in which she is training, or the content of this course, at the very least she has put this work together and is attempting to help other people to learn the Craft and advance spiritually. So, to those who are against the wiccan college it leaves the question … what have YOU done … ?
I know of no reputable coven in this country (USA) that would allow a 16 yr old to be actually training for a 1st, much less a 3rd degree. Legal age is the rule. And of course this implies you had already acquired a 1st & 2nd by age 16. Hmmmm…..
Over a 30 yr period of time, I’ve trained more people in the Craft than you’ll ever know about.
Love and Blessings Love and Blessings Love and Blessings
Sometimes it helps to remember that the outer world is a mirror of the inner one…the things that irritate us or push our buttons most in OTHERS most often do so when the same traits lie within us. If I live in alignment with my deepest integrity, no one’s comments will offend me, for I know who and what I am. When I can look into the eyes of every human being and see the Light & Love there - no matter how deeply buried - and pray in a loving way for that person’s growth and healing, then I am indeed accessing the best of my Witching abilities. In general, love generates healing and change better than other method.
Love and Blessings Love and Blessings Love and Blessings All.
May Love fill our hearts and minds.
May love permeate this website.
May love wash over us all, freeing us and blessing us with a way to speak from our hearts with clarity, grace, and in service of the healing, learning, growing and blossoming of our wisdom and ever widening circle of Loving one another.
Love
Love
Love.
And Love especially to any one of you that decides to send un-love out to anyone else.
BB
Maya
I’ve read the above with interest.
In my early twenties I began exploring the Wiccan path, and quickly found a spiritual connection. I’ve practiced as a solitary witch for twenty years, quietly incorporating the philosophy and practice into my daily life. Now in my magical 40th year, I am thrilled that there is so much information available to those who would also choose this path.
I am also thrilled to see that there are still those smart individuals who would continue ask questions and seek further information. It forces us all to maintain a high level of honesty and integrity. One’s spiritual growth and fulfillment is an intensely personal journey. Walk your own path with honesty, integrity and light.
Should Lady Raven provide you with information or tools that enhance your growth and development in the craft, that’s wonderful. If your experience with her has been disappointing, then while it’s just that, a disappointment, use it as a learning experience and grow from it.
I wish you all bright blessings.
Em
Beautiful, Em!
Maya
Merry meet all:
I have been following this thread with interest for awhile now and am ready to add to the conversation. Please keep in mind that I am an “alumni” of the Sacred Mists, having been a student for about two years.
Brothers and sisters, this animosity should not be. A worker earns her keep, period. Lady Raven has to earn a living after all. What is it to anybody that she does it as a coven leader of over 300 students? What is wrong with that, really? Her’s is a full time job, and she shouldn’t have to do it for free. It’s not like she’s Benny Hinn driving a Rolls down Hollywood boulevard. She’s a middle class mother living comfortably only. If she wanted to get rich, the Sacred Mists is not the way to do it.
Another thing, how is what she does any different from what, say, Otter Zell does when he sells books? Should pagan authors give their books away for free? The question answers itself. Lady Raven similarly provides written materials for the benefit of her students and coven members. She shouldn’t have to do it for free anymore than Otter Zell.
Sure, as an one time student within the Mists I could provide criticisms, none of which are germaine to this thread, but as to Lady Raven charging her students? I’ve no problem with it. Moreover, the people there are wonderful. You will never find a group of more friendly and loving people than you will at the Sacred Mists. It is second to none, and I’d recommend it to anybody looking for an online education in Wicca. It was a wonderful experience for me — and if I’m not a student there anymore it’s because at heart I realized that I’m not Wiccan.
Juvenall, I respect your opinions, but just can’t agree with them on this issue.
Let all be done in perfect love and perfect trust.
Brightest of Blessings~ SolemnAleron
Just one more quick comment. I do have a Sacred Mists degree, and I’m proud of it too. And I still consider myself a priest of the Sacred Mists even though I’m no longer a member.
Also, the school is “accredited” insofar as its certification comes from the reputation of the college itself. I scarcely believe that there is a single student who has passed First Degree that won’t give you their imprimatur. Such accreditation is far more valuable than some state licensing body stamping it with a seal of approval.
BBs~ SA
for just a moment I would ask some of you more scrupulous pagans to pretend - pretend you are a solitary seeking community. Pretend you are a new explorer to this religion of Wicca. Pretend you are in an area where the pagan community is not existent. Or perhaps you have had a negative experience with the pagan community in your area. Perhaps you are looking for a format to lend some structure to your learning. Perhaps you are seeking others to join in ritual on a consistent, reliable basis. And you find somewhere on this ever expanding world wide web to connect, to worship, to share, to grow. You have found Sacred Mists.
And now, you scrupulous pagans, place the shoe on the other foot. Consider that you are a High Priestess who has a vision of using the web as a catalyst for spiritual growth and community. Consider that you need to advertise this community. That you need to pay administrative costs for this to become a reality. That you discover that the students in the community have a desire to take on leadership roles and grow the community beyond anything you can do on your own. Consider that you are spending 60 hours a week on this endeavor and have a family to feed as well. Consider that an internet shop has the potential to offer income - just like ebay! Consider that you have a unique opportunity to join with other pagans to create a community that is of value and brings meaning to the faith of Wicca.
In your ivory tower Junvenall it is easy to dispense sour grapes.
Lorien Carrillo (a.k.a. Lady Raven Moonshadow, director of the Sacred Mists Online Wiccan College) has actually had her name in the public sphere for quite a while. In fact, it was her desire to turn a profit for her college that led her to get a business license for Sacred Mists (or, as it’s registered with the BBB, “Scared Mists”) in the first place. Since this is a matter of public record - and has been for over six years - I don’t know why she was so adamant about hiding the information. I’m also confused as to why there is so much misinformation about her age about - I‘ve heard she‘s everything from twenty-five to thirty-seven. I do know that, from 1998 until 2002, she worked with a number of prominent companies such as AltaVista, Boeing, Microsoft, Microsoft Business Solutions and Wells Fargo Bank (this information was gathered from both the BBB‘s site and shaunamarshall.com). I doubt those particular positions (things like production and development director or senior manager) paid poorly at all. I would call her professed personal income middle-class (at least, if you only count her income from Sacred Mists), but I would call her family income quite generous. So, no, Ms. Carrillo (who may have taken her husband’s name by now - she never admitted her full name to me personally) isn’t poor in the least. If anyone wants to verify information about her career, they can find it through Ms. Carrillo’s local BBB. They won’t accredit Sacred Mists, but they do have some important facts on file. However, they don’t know too much, despite having tried - unsuccessfully - to gather information about the company.
I would also like to add some of my own comments about Sacred Mists as an organization. I hold first and second degrees from Sacred Mists, I have led eight rituals there, I have facilitated dozens of chats and classes there (as well as two major boards for well over a year). I was also a member of the school’s top two divination associations until I quit the college a couple of days ago. I never had to have a homework assignment returned - indeed, my assignments earned praise on many occasions. On just my first and second degree finals, I wrote over 44,000 words. More than this, I genuinely care about that community, which is why I’m only giving you a few small complaints and not naming any names. If I told you all I know, however, I strongly believe that the school would meet with much disapprobation from organizations like the BBB, the ACLU and others.
As for the school, it’s quite a good program. The curriculum isn’t original, but it’s worth reading (if you don’t mind a moderate number of errors in the text). It’s also quite a flexible curriculum - at least, to the extent that one can call standardized lessons flexible. Some just do the bare bones, which is totally fine. However, people can also augment the lessons with quite a decent variety of activities. Having access to that community is incredible.
More than this, the people at Sacred Mists (on the whole) are amazing. The student council is made up on talented, knowledgeable and caring people with only a couple of exceptions. And the people taking their first and second degrees also tend to be wonderful. I still have friends from the Mists for whom I care deeply.
Ms. Carrillo, though she is the high priestess, never bothered to contact me until I was nearly finished with my second degree curriculum. But, when she did, it became almost immediately apparent that we were going to have problems. In the last few months especially, my impression of Ms. Carrillo led me to a large number of moral concerns. I left because I felt Ms. Carrillo lacked the necessary magickal skills and understanding, that she insulted my own family tradition, that she used socio-economic criteria in an attempt to dictate my behavior and opinions (even to the point of ridiculing me for being poor), that she was persistently evasive about how the college was run and what her credentials were, that she held money to be more important than the gods, that she expressly forbade certain reasonable behaviors (at one point even telling me I was to hide my intelligence so that it didn’t make others at the Mists uncomfortable), that she perpetuated schemes of favoritism, and that she often rashly shared confidential information about other coven members (which led to my great discomfort on a number of occasions).
When I tried to post a simple goodbye to the Sacred Mists community, it was deleted - made to look as if I hadn’t posted anything. I just wanted to say:
Merry part you of the SM community. I love you dearly. I will miss you greatly. May the gods bless you.
Sincerely,
Scott Hill, sometimes known as Vanamee
Hello to readers,
I am privy to this situation, having been involved directly and also having sat not 2 feet from the telephone where all communications between Raven and Mr. Hill took place. I was an impartial party until lately when I was shocked by the abuse being thrown at Raven by Mr. Hill, and now continues to be done but in a public forum. Because of this, I will say the following about Mr. Hill and why he is no longer a part of Sacred Mists, and I do so because he has chosen to take his departure to a negative and public place and some clarity should be had to readers about why so they can see, and be able to weight, the two sides of the coin.
1) Mr. Hill is economically paranoid. The money issue is huge for him and he holds intense dislike for anyone that makes anything that sets them outside of the low to poverty level bracket. He detests anyone that makes any kind of money beyond that and furthermore feels that people should choose poverty as a lifestyle. If people do make money that is anything beyond what he deems to be a comfortable and not excessive existence, he believes the remainder should be given to charity. This is made apparent by the numerous posts he placed on the Sacred Mists forums regarding this which, in the end, left hurt feelings and upset in its wake.
2) Mr. Hill has described many situations of severe paranoia on the boards and elsewhere. First, he was dismissed from being allowed to enter his the Masters program at his university where he studied. This, of course, in his mind was the complete fault of those who assess those desiring to enter, and he sought every way possible to receive legal assistance in trying to force the issue, all the while slamming and defaming those who had made the decision by name and publically. It could not have anything to do with him, no.. of course not. It has to do with “them”.. the establishment.
Then came the neighbors. This more recent paranoia was his neighbors trying to kill him and his family. Staying up all night long to protect his family from crazy people next door that were out to get them. Elaborate stories of happenings where the police would not help them, but that he and his family were in grave danger. This going so far as them have to buy another house and move in order to escape yet another victim-situation of Mr. Scott Hill, because don’t you know, the world is out to get him and it’s everyone else’s fault. We all did our best to aid Scott through this, supporting him and sharing in his challenges although because we know of his paranoid demeanor, it was tempered with that knowledge.
The final straw to Scott Hill leaving was when he caused great hurt and upset to several students, accusing them of being too ignorant and perhaps uneducated to possibly understand his position and explaination within a discussion forum. The reality is that the moment he is challenged, he begins to spout treatices interwoven with 10-letter words most would need to look up in the dictionary in order to prove his point. Not because they’re stupid, but because it’s not common lingo. This is the way he fights with people, and it made others feel put down becaause of it. Raven was blind copied on communication between him and one of the students he upset, Mr. Hill doing this inclusion of his own accord. Raven answered him personally, assuming he wanted a response. She told him she didn’t agree with the way he was treating the other student, found it hurtful and thought he was creating a problem. Mr. Hill cannot stand to be corrected or wrong… it was there that the problems began and have not stopped. He stated to several students that he was “forbidden” from speaking about things and that he was “not allowed” to say things to others. This is complete and utter rubbish, and Mr. Hill knows it. At no time was he forbidden, told he was not allowed, or otherwise. I WAS THERE FOR ALL VERBAL COMMUNICATION AND HAVE READ ALL WRITTEN ONES. He was called on the carpet with this attempt to inflame and incite concerns within the student body… again, he didn’t like that. And so it edged closer to this. When Raven finally responded to this issues directly, copying the students that he was telling this to in a direct and no-nonsense email that made sure that everyone was clear that at no time was he told he could not speak about whatever it was that he wished to speak about, Vanamee wrote a scathing email, copied the Student Council and left of his own accord.
It is important, I feel, to note that Scott Hill was on a generous, NO PAYMENT scholarship with the Sacred Mists training program. HIS WAS TUITION FREE (interesting for a place that is “out for money”).
As I said, I have been privy to every single call that Raven had with Mr. Hill. There was, AT NO TIME any negative commentary about his income, his family tradition, or otherwise. She answered every question Mr. Hill asked of her with grace and honesty. She NEVER ridiculed Mr. Hill for being poor (shame on you Scott… this your own issue talking there! Raven doesn’t care one whit about someone’s financial place in the world and she never asked you how much you made, had or didn’t make. This is fantasy land in your paranoid head).
And as you can see now, he is still trying to harm. Taking up his time to do research in an attempt to defame and injure. Stating her name because he knows that she’s asked to have it not public. He’ll do it anyway because it makes him feel vindicated. Going so far as to state her past resume connections, which have nothing to do whatsoever with this argument. However, I will say that I am PROUD to be working with someone who has clearly shown talent in the corporate world, and who has the ability to run large organizations because of her life experiences prior to starting SM. This makes the organization stronger!
The fact of the matter is that no one place can be “the place” for everyone. Thousands upon thousands of students have been touched by SM in the eight years since its inception online. Of that, only a small handful have had a problem, and each of those caused upset and pain for some within SM and that can be attested to by the students themselves by their OWN experience. This is a place of learning and we will provide a safe and nurturing environment for all seekers of the path. We will do all we can to ensure that this remains intact, as a hostile environment is not conducive to learning and growing spiritually. People such as Scott Hill, who opt to lash and hurt rather than learn and grow are not welcome within SM. That’s a fact, plain and simple. If you want to come here to learn in a safe and nurturing environment, experience powerful spiritual and life lessons and belong to a circle like no other, then we invite you to share with us!
Causing problems and upset within our church and spiritual home will not be tolerated, Mr. Hill. That is why you are no longer here and I want to thank Raven for her hard work in managing situations such as this, and I also want to apologize to her for having to bear the brunt of such vile and venom as you are spewing here. If she, and those in positions of leadership, did not, then we would be just like any other group on the internet. Full of people who are argumentative, elitist and ready for a fight. After my experiences with you over the past two years, where you have stirred up issues and then calmed back down after having it pointed out that you were doing so, we are glad you are not a part of our circle any longer.
It is true that you are a bright and educated man, Scott. But you are so filled with hate, anger, bitterness and paranoia that your eyes cannot see past that. The sad part is that you have an alter-ego that is loving, giving, sweet, magickally gifted and endearing. It is that which you show most often and it is that which enabled you to remain within SM for those years. Had those aspects of yourself not offset what we repeatedly received complaints about from students regarding your behavior, you would not have made it here.
This school is a wonderful place, and extremely supportive! However, Raven is one person and cannot personally seek out and communicate with over 1000 students all the time. Her contact information in the form of a toll-free number, multiple instant messenger points of contact as well as an email address is made available to all students to use, at any time. She works tirelessly for all students collectively and has worked hard to set up an intricate web of connections within the college as a whole so no student will feel lost or challenged for support while they are training. She cannot do it all, Mr. Hill, and she recognizes that. I think that worthy of recognition, not slander, because she is responsible and able to form a strong organization that serves many people around the world.
It is important to note as well that you and Raven never spoke of her magickal abilities. You never asked, and by your own admission you do not know her well so you making judgements on her abilities and knowledge as a HPs are baseless and without merit. More venom coming from you that is unfounded, but serves your purpose somehow. This is exactly why you are no longer a part of SM.
The interesting thing here, Scott, is that you were fine with SM until your behavior would no longer be tolerated and was dealt with. It was then that you began spewing your filth and vile, further sealing your fate.
You may hold pieces of paper that state your “knowledge”, but the fact of the matter is that you must walk the walk on this path and absorb the book learning that you are so clearly able to do. No one cares about pieces of paper on this path, Scott. 44,000 words is impressive indeed, but when you turn around and lash out, publically attempting to injure and defame another human being who had the audacity to stand up to you in defense of two students you were personally attacking and tell you to stop doing it, it is clear that you simply don’t get this path. HARM NONE, Scott Hill. You should be ashamed of yourself and the reality is, someday you will be, if you decide to mature spiritually at some point in your life. Your own venom and hate will poison you from the inside out, Scott. Be mindful of that.
- Liesel Marie Jameson
Sacred Mists Initiate
Adminstration and Record Keeping
(Who is paid full-time wages by SM for my efforts because I have to make a living, too.)
Thank you, dear. Your letter did more than I ever could to make my case. I will always recall my time with you fondly. Blessings.
Scott
Mr. Hill,
It’s important to note that you don’t even know me. I worked behind the scenes and you therefore have no idea who I am at all. In which case it is impossible for you to recall any time with me, let alone fondly. Am I angry with you? Absolutely. How dare you stir up this vile contempt in a place that gave you so much over the past 2 years and yes, Raven had her hands in it all obviously unbeknownst to you.
Now then, MY experiences with you came in the form of multiple issues that had to be dealt with administratively over the two years you were here and now with the horrible way you chose to depart. I’ve watched you do some positive things, absolutely. But when you do this downward spiral thing you do, it’s like a whirlwind and woe be to anyone in its wake.
If anything, the above post serves to share with those who read the reality of the person who has presented such a skewed representation of the situation, so much so that it borders on libel. Again I say shame on you, Mr. Hill. Shame on you. You say the gods are watching… indeed they are.
Good day.
Leisel
How sad to find that this thread is still going.
I want to applaud the voices of Brandi, Grandmother Toad, Shauni, Susan, Willow, An Observer, Crowshadow, Jessie, Maya, Emerald, SolemnAleron, and Faerie Dell who have shared their thoughts without hostility or malice as some have chosen to do within this thread. Those within Sacred Mists know who these people are and know the dramatic issues they attempted to create within our program. The circle environment is intricate, even more so the larger it grows, and there will always be a few who come and go that end up creating challenges for the whole. It is an inevitable truth of the group dynamic, particularly with one that is open for joining, however we do all we can to manage this in such a way as to minimize impact on the students who are working within the program in a positive way toward their personal, spiritual goals.
I just want to say that I have read your posts and appreciate you all for sharing your thoughts.
… and blessings to you as well, Vanamee. While it saddens me greatly that you have opted to go this route and stoop to attacks of a personal nature for whatever reason, it is ultimately your choice to do so.
As I’ve said before, I do wish you well and pray that you find a place of peace in this world we all share. Truly, Scott, hurting others is not in any way nourishing to our souls, even if it may feel that way to you initially.
Sacred Mists is a place of significant spiritual growth and is a home for many around the world. I hope that you remember that you were very happy here for the two years you were with us, save for challenges faced during your periods of growth that we all have to work with from time to time. I hope you are able to move past the hurt you are feeling regarding your departure and carry on with the knowledge that you truly loved SM, and that SM loved you. I am included in that feeling of care for you, whether you wish to acknowledge that or not. I watched, read and followed you through your progress from the day you entered my program. I shared your joys and triumphs, your personal and spiritual revelations as well as your challenges, both magickally and in the mundane. But, all of this will pass and we will remember one another kindly for the gifts we both shared with each other toward spiritual growth, at least that will be my personal goal.
To those of you who come to read and feel saddened by what you have had to see, I want to personally apologize. Sacred Mists is not about what you are seeing here. Anyone involved in our program would attest to that fact. Because of that, I am very able to bid you peace and happiness Scott, and to all who have expressed bitterness and hate within this thread. Wherever your path leads you, I pray it brings you to a place of love and light. Know that my door is always open.
Many blessings to you and yours,
- Lady Raven
Sadly, Liesel and I shared a computer for this interaction, therefore her name is appearing on my above post due to this forum auto-populating contact information for follow-up replies after you send a post. I have changed it for this post.
Rest assured the post signed by me is written by me and that I invite anyone wishing to verify it to call me directly, toll free, to discuss its content - 866.918.2437. Alternatively you may email me directly by clicking my name above. I’m more than happy to speak with anyone, at any time, and to answer any questions you may have regarding the program, my training, our history or to find out more about what we have to offer.
Many blessings to all,
- Lady Raven
Ms. Jameson, I can only wonder at the lies you’re telling about me. I have the paperwork to prove you have committed libel, but I’m willing to ignore that in light of my much greater concern.
Apparently Ms. Carrillo/Moonshadow has been sharing my personal, private information with a complete stranger for years. I find that truly disturbing. I’m glad I chose to leave the organization when I did.
Scott
This part is to Liesel, You shoud be ashamed of YOURSELF! Privacy is Privacy. NOT for your ears! You are no better than anyone else bashing here on this post. If you want to stick up for the college, then do it nicely and not snotty like you did. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinions but all you bashing at Scott is terrible. If you do not know the whole TRUE story, then everyone should close their mouth. Everyone should expect when someone is fired from a job, let go from a school that there is going to be bad things said. If you know the truth, why add fuel to the fire that is in front of you? Are you trying to make a bomb? If so, you are in the wrong country then. If you work for the college, then be the bigger person and be quiet or state your opinions nicely and not like you did because that made you look like quilty as hell. So what if he was on a free scholarship, in your reply, you did not have to capitalize it about Scott and at the end of your comment put, “Who is paid full-time wages by SM for my efforts because I have to make a living”. Who cares is you are a paid full-time wages. Your response you left here and then letting everone know you are an administrator for the college did not make the college look good in the aspect of having someone in that department leaving unprofessional resposes like you did. You could have done it nicely and professionally.
Scott, I am going to miss you more than anyone in the Mist. Your readings were the most accurate reading ever. I paid 100.00, actually my mother and I each paid 100.00 to have a reading done in Ohio 2 years ago, 50.00 in Michigan at some Expo and their readings were so bull crapply fake it was unreal. Their readings weren’t really reading, they asked us questions and comments and fed off of what we said or our facial exxpressions. None the less….I am going to really miss you. I can never thank you enough for the reading on Donny. Karma will bite your neighbors sooner or later.
Also, you should not have to defend yourself to anyone. No one as the power to judge anyone until they look in their mirror and judge theirself. People who judge are guilty, ashamed, embarrassed, jealious, have skeletons in their closet, you get the idea. You do not have to justify yourself to anyone. Go on with your life and be happy. I wish you all the luck in the Universe. You deserve it!
If Liesel is telling lies about you, people who know you and everything you ave been going through know the truth and that is all that counts. Never justify yourself to anyone.
My divorce judge told me that one. Lol.
Missing you in the college…..Tena
Oh Scott, I did not really comprehend the part about Liesel listening in on peoples private calls to LMS. Ohhhhhh, that is sooooooooo bad. I know never to call now. Lol. Privacy is privacy. That is were the trust issue comes into effect. That scares me, alot. Thanks
I am with Tena on this one, Liesel, you should be completely ashamed of yourself. A person with your motives should not be within any kind of distance to our dear Lady Raven. Heaven forbid that she trusts you at all, knowing that you have shared privet information about a student. Current student or not, it is not your place to open the books and blab out an editorial of lies about anyone. Further, it is clear to me now, that you may not only be listening in the conversations, you may be siting in for Lady Raven on all calls that come into that line. I know of a fact I have spoken to the true Lady Raven, and she would not have, in her right mind, condoned this action of yours, attacking Scott, as I am sure at this point, you have done to others in the past. However, should she have beleived what you have said, she might have, being just as ill informed as you, because of her faith in your word. And her response after your first post, if the second under that is to believed as part of the third, is in total contrast to her original post to this blog post. Fact is, it certainly seems like your just pretending to be her. All the more reason why you should not have said what you said, it being filled with lies sprinkled with half-truths.
I know Scott, and I know Lady Raven, and I know the Sacred Mists has been changing for the better in the two years I have been there. Lady Raven is human, we all are, and she is experianced, but still learning, as I encourage all of you to be ever learning FOR YOURSELVES, don’t just take peoples word for it. The direction the college has taken in the last two years has proven to me that to be eclectic, is an ever ongoing process. Nothing remains still in a state of growth, and there is pain in growth. Looking at the date of this original blog, the wake of its attack may have opened the need for this growth to take place, everything happens for a reason does it not?
Blessed Scott, you will be missed, I know what you went through is true experiance, I went through it with you. You have showed the growth that comes with having gone through it, that is proof enough on its own, no aditional proof needed. Truth be your journey’s end. My love is always with you my brother.
Em, your words are right on, well put and very true to the mark.
To whome it may concern, “live and let live, fairly take and fairly give” but lets not all go blind and toothless with all this eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth dog throat drama.
Paint it any color you like, it still looks like venom to me.
Blessings of Justice and Mercy, Maleficent Riddle
I feel it necessary to balance this *blog* Shame on all of you nay sayers! IF you have a personal feeling toward the school ,so be it. To attack a person specifically is horrid and unjust. I find this the most innappropiate place to post your rececnt grievences Mr. Hill. Have you no cuth? Where are your ethics? What ever happened to Harm ye none? If you stayed for 2 full degrees and she was soo horrid ,even though you liked the community, why stay? Im a student of Sacred Mists. So many people are helped through our program designed specifically to help other students in need, just like your tuiton! This was created by Lady Raven herself! So she is in it for the money? She just wants to make a buck? I think not! No one in student council nor Lady herself have said anything about any former students to ANYONE. No matter how the student left it is not discussed! Lady Raven and the Student Council as well as Leadership for that matter work soooo very hard to provide a safe place for all, If anyones voice is stifled it is for the protection of the students and to prevent hurt. Would you like your name publicly smeared? Would you like if someone were to put your full name and credentials in public view???? Your character Mr.Hill comes under great scrutiny in you posting. Have you sought counseling? I think you should. Perhaps the *Path* is not truly the path you walk. Your path seems full of hatred. You say you are soo educated. Are you really? Honestly a truly educated and enlightned person would not carry on in a manner such as this. Sacred Mists is a wonderfully unique and caring place. Hundreds of people have benefited from the school , even if they never chose to dedicate. I will not say that anyone is perfect and for you to expect people to be is simply insane! I really think you sir, need to work on whatever shadows you are carrying and look inward rather then placing blames on others.
To any that have never come to Sacred Mists, there are over 700 of us currently, if it were so bad, why would so many remain? I feel most of you would find Sacred Mists a wonderful second home. Try it for yourself! Do not let the opinions of a few disgruntled people deny you this opportunity!
Balance…is important in everything. I come not to speak to the accusations nor the character of anyone who has spoken ill of Lady Raven…but of my own experience, from my own private blog.
The question of : “As those who work with the Craft, it is often said that the first step of any magick is “Know Thyself”. How important do you think this is? Is it possible to perform any successful magick without first understanding yourself, therefore understanding your true intent and what drives it?” was posted in the wee hours of one morning by Lady Raven Moonshadow. It was an interesting look at what is perceived as who you are and who you really may be in my mind. I wrote the below in response to this question…
Many times over the years I have heard that this is indeed the first step to working any magick, and wondered fleetingly in my younger days and more deeply as the years pass me by. I guess it comes down to it for me as this, is it even truly possible to “Know Thyself”. It seems that knowing one’s self, your motivations, desires, fears and more come into play with any type of magick. But do we *really* know ourselves? Let me give you an example, one you are familiar with, about me.
Several years ago, I used to run around Sacred Mists, answering EVERY post, gobbling up EVERY task given to me. I did not know when to say enough, *no* was not in my vocabulary. For a time, everything was quite fine and dandy, I was able to keep up with little to no problems. At some point, and I cannot say when this was for sure, it became too much. Instead of off-loading some of my duties, which would have been the intelligent and grown-up thing to do, I continued to take on task after task until I broke down. Everything Dropped. I disappeared completely from burn out.
Upon my return I was greeted with skeptical hugs and love. Had I really recovered from a burn out breakdown? What happened?
In the end I received an assignment that would prove to help me understand myself in ways that I had not previously. I came to know quite a bit of myself which I did not know.
When I entered the 3rd Degree, having successfully completed many rituals, meditations, journey’s, and other areas of magick, I thought I knew myself and was ready for this. Several years have passed since I entered my 3rd Degree Traning with Sacred Mists and I can honestly say, I have learned more of myself, the nature of my own magick and talents than I ever thought possible. It has been a difficult and bumpy ride. I have loved every single moment of it.
Do I think you have to know yourself to perform successful magick? In a way yes. You have to know who you are at that moment and understand your own motivations and be honest with yourself about them. Will you be the same person tomorrow, next week, in an hour? Maybe not. I believe we are constantly evolving and growing as we walk the path we have chosen. But know yourself NOW and understand your emotions and motivations NOW, this can be accomplished through honesty with yourself, meditation and confidence in yourself. With this you can perform successful magick.
For me I grow it seems daily in leaps and bounds as I walk the Tradition of Sacred Mists. I walk this directly behind you Lady Raven Moonshadow, knowing that one day, I will walk BESIDE her. I believe we learn from each other every day. I believe that I learn from you and in turn you learn from me. I believe this is so with all of us at Sacred Mists and with everyone we allow in our lives. With this constant growth and learning of one’s self, we are able to successfully perform magick time after time.
It all comes down to honesty, love, and truth. In the end we do not really have the full capacity to know who we are. This is because we are always growing, learning, and evolving as we walk our individual paths in life. How can you know yourself when you are always changing, evolving? You can only know yourself *right now*. If you know yourself right now, you can perform some of the most beautiful and meaningful acts of magick.
** That seems like a pretty good teacher and place to learn to me**
Merry Meet to All,
I feel a great sense of gratitude for the College of the Sacred Mists and Lady Raven’s leadership and guidance over the years. I have been with SM for years, and there’s no way I could ever leave it. It is my home. I know that any time day or night I can call Lady Raven on the phone and that she will answer and that she can help me through anything. She helped me through some of my darkest days and never ONCE did she ever give me the impression that she was put out. She always has time for her students.
With over 700 students, it is impossible to know them all as well as Lady would like to. However she has made every effort to try. Letting students know her number, and that her door is always open. Running something as large as Sacred Mists is no easy task, and there is no person better suited for it than Lady Raven. I was even blessed enough to have gone to visit her at home and to help her out in the Shoppe. I was amazed to see how much she does in one day. Taking multiple IMs at one time, helping with customer service, checking on orders, helping her children with their homework, making dinner. She NEVER stops. She never asks for anything for herself.
I am a second degree student and I have been taking my time on my lessons. If I had turned in each of the lessons precisely on time, I would have been eligible to move on to the next degree on the year and a day time frame. No student is made to take longer times with their lessons. The only timeframe is a year and a day. If it takes longer, that is fine! We learn at our own pace. I’ve been working on my current lesson for 7 months, because I myself feel that I am not ready to move to the next part. Some lessons are challenging, and I don’t feel there is anything to be gained by trying to rush through and not learn the complete lesson.
I love our school. I love being a member of Student Council. I LOVE learning at Sacred Mists. I grade homework too, and run the mentor program for new students. I work in Student Services. There is nothing I would not do for my College. I do all of these things in addition to working a full time job and going to Culinary School full time. This is because this is WORTH doing. As I have said, Sacred Mists is my home. I would love for those who are curious about to come and try it. Maybe you will find your home too. Perhaps you won’t, but that is up for you to try. We each walk a different path, and only you can say what is right for you. I would ask that if you want to know about us, come try us. Ask us questions! We love our work! There is nothing more beautiful than living your faith and sharing it with others.
Please feel free to contact us at any time if you have questions! studentservices@workingwitches.com I’d be happy to help you, or find someone who can!
Brightest Blessings,
Maiden Stormrider
I am one of those people who does her research before joining any organization, and when researching the College of the Sacred Mists I came across this webpage. Sacred Mists looks like a really great program when I look at the website. As I did research on the program, I found people who weren’t happy with the school, and people who were happy with it, which is normal for any school. I was really close to signing up for Sacred Mists, but I found some information that made me cautious about signing up. I find it interesting that people are upset with Mr. Hill for posting Raven’s real name and other personal info online, when the information is easily available to the public, if you bother to look it up. I of course looked up SAcred Mists with the BBB, because that’s a smart thing to do when researching any business. Her name is available right there, and once you have that you just google her name and find all kinds of information. I don’t know about other people, but to me it is very important to know something about the person in charge of my magickal education, especially since I’ve never met her in person. Like Mr. Hill, Raven’s involvement in what looks to be a business career gives me cause for worry. yes, everyone needs to make enough money to live comfortably and to have some luxuries, but is someone who is centered on making money really the right person to lead people on a spiritual path? I’m not saying that Raven doesn’t want to help people, it is very likely that she does want to help. I’m just saying, not everyone views money in the same way. Even after finding that information about Raven, I thought about joining the school. But this site has left me very confused about what to do. Most especially Liesel’s posts are disturbing. What an invasion of privacy! It seems that Mr. Hill was having what were supposed to be private conversations with Raven, which Liesel says she was listening in on! If this was an accredited school, there could be all kinds of legal and monetary consequences. It sounds like there was a lot of mis-communication going on, and with so many students it is easy to see how that could happen. It sounds like Sacred Mists is a great place to meet other people with similar interests, and sometimes a great place to learn. But it is really pretty awful that Liesel posted all kinds of private info about Mr. Hill that no one but Raven should have known. Liesel may be trying to say it is okay because of what Mr. Hill posted about RAven, but all that info was already posted on the internet in several places, made available by Raven herself. I also want to address some of the things Liesel brought up:
1. mr. Hill’s economic issues : Sorry Liesel, but I don’t see anything wrong with someone thinking that once you have enough money to be comfortable you should give money to charity. I mean really, what’s wrong with that? Is it really so bad to expect people to give up their extra money to help animals and children that can’t help themselves?
2.paranoia? - you say he had to leave his Master’s program and sought legal action - well, if you felt you had been unjustly made to leave school, wouldn’t you fight back? If you felt they had illegally made you leave school, wouldn’t it be a smart thing to take legal action against them? think about it
As for the threats from neighbors, it is Mr Hill’s word against Leisel’s. He was there, she wasn’t, so who am I more likely to believe? Leisel has shown herself to be immoral in invading his privacy, so why wouldn’t she make up whatever she wanted to about him and his neighbors? Leisel, don’t you think since you have no proof that Mr. Hill is lying, that you are jumping to conclusions about his “neighbor paranoia”? Won’t you feel a little bad if you find out that he really did go through such a trying ordeal. I’ve been in a situation of threats and harassment before, and it is so stressful it can make you physically ill. Unless you can provide proof that Mr. Hill is either lying or deluded, I’m going to believe him.
3. And as for the huge 10 letter words, maybe since Mr. Hill has an education and seems from his writing to be intelligent, maybe that is just the way he talks! I know people who read a lot and study a lot, and they just use big words sometimes. All you have to do is ask them to tone it down, or ask what it means. i read his posts on here and understood everything he said.
It comes down to this: I was still considering joining the school, but the thing that made me say “absolutely not!” was the invasion of privacy. How could I join a coven where my leader might let someone else listen to private info about me? How could I join a coven where someone who works closely with the leader is going to share private information about me? Even though he is not a member anymore, no one has any right to share that information that was given only under the understanding that it would be private. So because of that, I will find a different path of learning.
Blessed Be
I’m not going to say my name as the coven knows it, because I don’t want any trouble. but I am a sacred mists student, and I want to correct some wrong information that this Leisel person gave. Like Scott, I have never met Leisel and didn’t even know she existed. She talked about money and about Scott being on a full scholarship, but I know for a fact that he has paid full tuition all the time he was at Sacred Mists, until a couple of months ago becuase his family was trying to buy a house and needed help for a little while. I don’t like Leisel trying to make it sound like he was out to get free services from the school, when in reality he has paid out a lot of money to the Mists. Also, I saw some of the “arguments” that were posted where Scott used “big words”, but I think that everyone was just debating and didn’t like Scott’s opinion, and they got really annoyed by his opinion being different. It really snowballed, and a lot of us will miss Scott, even though I didn’t always agree with him. I’ll stay at the Mists because I love my friends there, but I’ll be careful in the future to watch my back, just in case. Good luck Scott!
Thanks,
from a student at the mists
I am so sad that when someone has a problem they think it OK to post it to this Sick Blog!!! I am a student at Sacred Mists and have been for almost 2 years. I hide a lot but that is my Stuff not anyone else’s. The $20 a month is nothing when I think of ALL our Lady does for US and the rest of my Brothers and Sisters in the Mists! I am Greatful to have a SAFE PLACE to Land when ever I need it. The friends I have made in there mean the world to me. I wish everyone would take a step back before they throw such MUD! I too had problems with the whole money CRAP but have come to realize it is a Very small price to pay to have such a community at my finger tips. I am not there for the Degree’s! I am there for the Support and Understanding of Like minded people. I am a very shy person and this Wonerful School and Community is helping me to come out of my self made shell and for that there could not be a Price Tag! Scott I wish you LOVE and PEACE and am sorry it did not work out for you. Lady Raven I am so Greatful that you started this Blessed Place for us all to go to Great Big Hugs!
Blessing Light and Love!!!
SilverWolf
*Sigh*
Well, insofar as everybody is entitled to an opinion, I’ll respect such opinions whether I agree with them or not. I know both Lady Raven and Vanamee, moreover, and I like them both too even if we do not often speak since my departure from the college. Alas - let me state this as neutrally as possible - I do not find an alleged fact in Vanamee’s criticisms that I correlate with what I know to be true about both Lady Raven and Sacred Mists. In my individual opinion she and the college are assets to the pagan community. This is particularly the case because meaningful instruction about Wicca can turn out to be sketchy and haphazard at the local, grassroots levels. Sacred Mists may not be the only college of Wicca with worldwide appeal, of course, but it is as fine an institution as one might hope to find among the several pagan colleges in existence.
Nor should effective pagan leaders be expected to “know it all.” Rather, they naturally surround themselves with knowledgeable, capable people, with which Sacred Mists is blessed in abundance. Certain arguments made above unfortunately presuppose that in order for Sacred Mists to be of real value to the pagan world that Lady Raven as high priestess must be the smartest, most knowledgeable, and most spiritual member of the coven. She must be, in effect, the mostest of the most. In fact, Sacred Mists is not a personality cult, so I won’t dignify this assumption with a lengthy response. There’s no objective test of Wiccaness by which to decide whether a leader is all that. But if this really is the deciding factor of one considering membership in Sacred Mists, or in any other college or coven, then perhaps a reality check is in order. Paganism, and more specifically Wicca, being blessed with the same richness and diversity shared by so many other religions, can well find room for many leaders who bear many strengths and even weaknesses as the case may be. The day when we decide that we cannot learn from somebody unless they are superior in every facet of the subject matter under consideration, then we have placed ourselves in a pickle, indeed.
So, is Lady Raven the mostest of the most? Dunno actually. Or even care, for that matter. And I can’t speak for her, but I suspect that she doesn’t care either. As someone mentioned above, she’s busy running a college and coven.
As for the pissing match taking place within this thread, well, I suppose the proverbial cat’s out of the bag, so to speak, so it’s better that it happen here among fellow pagans than in front of others who not only have no idea what we’re even talking about but also would use our quarrel for lesser purposes. In the end, somebody considering enrolling in Sacred Mists rightly goes to the headmistress herself or to a coven member and talks to them about the college and what it can offer. Nobody would expect or should expect any more, or any less. May the Goddess guide all in their journeys.
Brightest of Blessings~ SolemnAleron
Firstly I never thought I would be posting here because frankly there is just too much misinformation and a whole lot of nasty energy happening here. We are entitled to an opinion but please make sure it is an informed opinion said in such a way as to not cause harm to another.
With that said I’ll give a little background on me just incase anyone is interested. If not then please skip this paragraph.
I’ve been a student at Sacred Mists for 4 years 3 months. There is no doubt that I love this school/circle/coven. If I didn’t I would not still be here. I am a 3rd degree student and a member of Student Council. I work closely with Lady Raven and the rest of Student Council and Leadership to ensure that those that come to Sacred Mists get the education, knowledge and assistance they need. I work closely with a great many of the students from their first day in the door until they choose to leave (if ever). I was involved in the incidents with Vanamee (Mr. Hill). I received the emails and was involved with the students that were effected by his poor judgment and were hurt by his demeaning words and self righteous attitude. I assisted with helping those students through this difficult time as well as attempted to assist Vanamee see where his actions may have caused hurt and unrest within the school. He chose to ignore my help as well as the help and love offered by Lady Raven and the Student Council.
Vanamee, if you are reading this you need to understand that every attempt was made to communicate with you and work things out. You chose to take this to a whole new level instead. I’m not going to go into a lengthy ramble of what all took place because frankly it’s rather a useless waste of time and energy.
The facts are that you were wrong to act as you did Vanamee. The reason you are no longer a student at Sacred Mists is because you continued to inflict hurt within the halls of the Mists and that is one thing we simply cannot allow to happen.
Sacred Mists IS a place of ‘Perfect Love and Perfect Trust”. We are all adults here and we all must come to this place of learning to learn, grow and find enlightenment. This is not the place for everyone to be sure. If you are undecided about joining then by all means investigate and decide for yourself if this is the spiritual home for you. As I said I have been here for over 4 years and I enjoy it immensely and for me Sacred Mists is my spiritual home.
To those that posted here and have never taken a step inside the doors yet find reason to smear our name and insult the people that do attend I have no use for you or your hurtful words. To those that are students of Sacred Mists and are upset that Vanamee has left I do understand your frustration and I am here for you as well as all members of Student Council & Lady Raven. If you wish more information please do contact us so that we can inform you and answer any questions you may have. We are not going to continue to post here in an attempt to justify ourselves. It’s ridiculous to do so.
We are a circle, coven and family and anyone that joins us with perfect love and trust knows what an absolutely wonderful place Sacred Mists is. Those that come for less than that will find that we will not allow hurt, resentment and drama within our home.
To anyone interested we are always here to answer your questions and will welcome you with open arms should you decide you wish to join us.
Continuing to post to this ‘blog’ will continue the hurt already placed here and it will do no good so I’m hoping you will see this and understand it’s best to spend your energies where they can do some good and we can see positive results for your efforts.
For me at least I choose to carry on posting to the Sacred Mists boards, lending my energies to a place that I love and the people that give so much.
Vanamee I wish you well and for the most part have enjoyed the time we have spent together. Go in peace, love & light!
To everyone else please tread lightly here and remember “An it harm none, do what you will”.
You may contact the school at raven@workingwitches.com
Our website is http://www.workingwitches.com
My personal email is wbw@workingwitches.com
Student Council is sc@workingwitches.com
Many Blessings,
WiccanBlessingWolf
3rd Degree Dedicant
Student Council Member
I’d assume they have other people working in their office. Unless the place is a one-man show, which I doubt based on what I’ve read and heard, if you’re calling into any office or are receiving a call from an office, any office work place, you can probably assume that there are other people around to hear one side of the conversation. Sounds like Liesel was there during calls made to the office and heard one side of them. Sounds like she responded to statements made about Raven by Mr. Hill that, from her vantage point, aren’t true. Maybe she didn’t do it the best way, but I didn’t see anything that said “wow… privacy invasion”. Let’s face it, calling into an office or something like it, you shouldn’t assume your call to be private unless it is clear that it is. If privacy is needed, it can be achieved by requesting it, but to expect every call into their office to be private probably isn’t feasible. It’s a work place.
All of you Mist people should just let this go. Is someone telling you to post on here and bag on Mr. Hill, Scott? It is kind of funny that once Raven posted all of a sudden there are numerous posts bagging on Scott and bragging up the school. hummmmmmmmm, sound fishy to me.
Liesel, you are a terrible person for what you have done. Most of this is because of you. You have no right noising in on peoples privacy and private info and phone conversations. You are a sick individual. You should be let go from the school because it sounds like people are afraid to join now no matter what good is said by people in the Mist. You can tell anyone that what was said about the privacy is not true but the thought is in everyones head now and that causes doubt. I know I would not trust you as far as I can throw you. You are a terrible person. Invasion of privacy is a scary thing now a days and you did that and now everyone knows. You should feel embarrassed. If I were you, I would leave the school. You caused trouble.
“…sound fishy to me.”
it’s a forum. other people have other opinions. they read the posts here and don’t agree, so they post too. that’s how they work.
If forums were just to share the same opinion, what value would they be?
a wise person once told me, “Fighting on an internet forum is like running in the special olympics: Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”
I like turtles. Your cat’s a pussy… Wanna get into it?
*I want to preface this by saying something really important, and that is that no one has asked me to come and post here.*
I personally know Lady Raven, and I know that she would never ask or require anyone to do anything that they wouldn’t be comfortable doing. We did talk about this thread, though, and I, along with some of my brothers and sisters have felt compelled to come here and share a little bit about the Sacred Mists that we know and love. I am here just to let anyone who finds this thread know about *my* Sacred Mists.
I am here because I love Sacred Mists. Sacred Mists is a place where you can be accepted and loved, a place where you will learn, a place full of other people that are on the same path as you.
I have found a community of like-minded people, all united under the same banner. Isn’t that what we ultimately seek when we look to join a coven? Unity, community, brotherhood and support?
I enjoy every minute that I’m a part of Sacred Mists. When I joined over 3 years ago, I know immediately that I would want to continue with the coven, and grow and develop my spiritual path. I work in a professional corporate environment, and this was a wonderful creative outlet for me where I could stretch my wings and still utilize the skills I developed in my mundane life.
I have been privileged to lead Discussion Boards, mentor new students, coordinate Festivals, lead Study Halls and Esbats, and eventually develop into my current role as a member of the Student Council, where I am fortunate enough to oversee several Committees and other responsibilities.
Sacred Mists is full of incredibly passionate, dedicated, smart people. We have an excellent Department of Divination, where students are able to get amazing readings from a host of talented divinators, both new and old. The message boards are run by incredible folks that spend their time finding discussion material and posting relevant information on their themed boards.
All of this is done by volunteers that spend their personal time making Sacred Mists an incredible place to be a student, and hopefully, at some point join our Leadership Team, if that’s what you desire. I have been challenged, both personally and spiritually, and not a day goes by that I don’t learn something new from someone sharing something on the dozens of active message boards that we have.
I realize and accept that some hurtful things have been said on this thread, and I just want to really encourage any prospective students to contact Lady Raven, contact Lilyth, contact Maiden, contact WBW or contact me (chickadee@workingwitches.com).
Come take a walk with me through the halls of my Sacred Mists. I know that you will love it as much as I do.
Blessings,
Chickadee Autumn
chickadee@workingwitches.com
Student Council
I had already been in Sacred Mists for 6 years when this original post was put up and I heard about it. I had actually never come here previously due to people talking about this “negative thread”. I was of the mind that someone was speaking their opinion, mine differed, therefore I’m going to continue doing what works for me.
I had been a close personal friend of Lady Raven Moonshadow’s for 4 years at the time of this thread’s beginning, and until Scott Hill/Vanamee’s post all comments were made about the COLLEGE of the Sacred Mists. However when Scott Hill/Vanamee posted this wasn’t his point. He, in fact, said many positive things about the school itself. It was Lady Raven, the College’s High Priestess herself, that he was attacking. And thus, why I feel compelled to post here as well. I am not going to extoll the many virtues of the College of the Sacred Mists as others before me, including Scott Hill/Vanamee, have done a much better job than I could. I am here because a close personal friend of mine was unnecessarily and personally attacked on this forum.
A previous poster mentioned if someone had been fired they tend to say nasty things about their previous place of employment, especially if they feel they were wronged. However, I wouldn’t think those people would go out of their way to say nice things about the “company” and spare their insults for the “boss”. In my 8 years of dealing with Lady Raven through the College, and 6 being a close personal friend, I have never, once, had any dealings or problems the likes of which Scott Hill/Vanamee accuses her of. If anything, I would say I have found the exact opposite. A true, die-hard friend who boosts you up when you are down, but also kicks you a little if you’re down too long feeling sorry for yourself. We have had disagreements and do not always agree 100%, but that is because we are different people with different life experiences.
What I would ask is that people carefully examine Scott Hill/Vanamee’s claims and ask “how do you prove or disprove this?” This original thread questions the practices of the College of the Sacred Mists, which can be objectively proven. What is said about a person’s integrity and their personality is purely subjective and will be different for every person. Not everyone would be happy or prefer to be in an environment like Sacred Mists, just as not everyone can be friends with everyone else on the planet. However my opinion, or yours, or Scott Hill/Vanamee’s is just that. An opinion. The only way to know the truth FOR YOURSELF is to find out - for yourself.
Please feel free to also contact me at Dcybele@hotmail.com if you have any questions, comments, cracks about my grammar or spelling, etc.
Hugs and bum pinches,
Sheryl Dunn/Dcybele
I have watched this blog over the past days with horror and with pride, but because of my involvement in both sides of the circumstances that initiated the recent discussion about Lady Raven and Sacred Mists, I have been holding back from offering my thoughts. However, I think the time has come for me to speak and then move on.
For those who do not know me, I have been a student at Sacred Mists for over five years. I initially enrolled because I felt the need for more learning than I could get from books; I chose Sacred Mists after examining and participating in several other on-line institutions because of the wide variety of opportunities for interactive and fluid learning, rather than just the “already in place” lessons that I found within my experiences in other schools, and because I had found within Sacred Mists a “good fit,” which is something personal and individual and hard to categorize. As I progressed through the First Degree Training, I was thrilled by the challenges presented to me and the opportunities for growth.
I had no intention of initiating when I first enrolled, but that changed by the time I had completed my First Degree Training. At this time, I am, among other pursuits, a Second Degree Initiate, a Third Degree Dedicant, a Co-Facilitator of the Tarot Class, Assistant Director of the Sacred Mists Psychic and Divinatory Alliance, an Advisor of the Skillworking Board, author and Facilitator of the Sacred Movement Class, Assistant Director of the Second Degree Mentor Program, and recently became a member of the Student Council. All of these things, every single one of them, have happened because I connected with and continue to benefit from the unique opportunities for growth and learning that are found at Sacred Mists. The challenges and opportunities for growth have intensified right along with the lessons presented, and I have not found a single “fluffy” thing about my Third Degree Training; on the contrary, this training involves intense participation by the Third Degree Student on all levels, more than you can imagine if you have not reached this level in your studies. Along with these responsibilities comes moments of ecstasy and purpose and meaning, and moments of burden and sorrow. Each of these moments are necessary and are a part of a rich and textured spiritual life.
I have known Lady Raven since I first joined Sacred Mists and have deepened my relationship with her and my respect for her as I have progressed within my training, for the deeper a student progresses, the more interaction with Lady Raven there is. While some of her responsibilities are delegated to others (which makes perfect sense when you consider the 700 + students under her care), Lady Raven exerts a superhuman effort to at least have a hand in all facets of Sacred Mists. Despite the fact that I am a Third Degree Trainee, attempting to learn what needs to be learned in order to do her job, I don’t know if I could maintain the quality of leadership that Lady Raven offers and I don’t know if I would want to shoulder her responsibilities, for they might crush me.
I have known Vanamee since he first became a student at Sacred Mists. I was his First Degree Mentor, his Tarot teacher, and I am his friend. Vanamee is an incredible divinator, an intelligent and well-spoken communicator in every regard, at least in my experiences with him. I know that as he made the transition from First Degree Student to Second Degree Student, Vanamee did so with much thought to his intentions and his hopes for the future, for I was a part of that thought process, at least a little bit. I know that Vanamee has willingly given of himself, both to benefit Sacred Mists and to benefit the students, and I believe that he has been successful in both regards. I know that I have learned from Vanamee.
Because I like both protagonists in this issue, I am sorry that things have disintegrated to this end. But I can vouch for the fact that no one who acted in the name of Sacred Mists took any action whatsoever with even the slightest intent to deceive or harm or abuse! Every action taken was with the intent to solve the issue with the least harm, and with the hope that all parties could continue to learn and grow together. I know this to be true because I was a part of the process, and anyone who knows me also knows that I could not speak here or continue to deepen my involvement with Sacred Mists otherwise.
The bottom line is that Sacred Mists is my spiritual family. Not one person involved in any way with Sacred Mists has ever professed perfection, or required me to purchase or perform anything in order to continue being a part of Sacred Mists, besides the small monthly fee that I feel gives me a very large “bang for my buck” when I consider the quality and diversity of opportunities available to me at Sacred Mists. I understand that in today’s world, money makes things happen, and I do not regret one cent of my funds that have gone to support the infrastructure of Sacred Mists; on the contrary, to me it is money well spent because I have benefited greatly from that expenditure. While there certainly are minimum time requirements to the training presented at Sacred Mists, and justifiably so, students are always encouraged to push the envelope as far as learning and growing are concerned, and they are encouraged to keep in mind that it is their own responsibility to do this. They must remember that they will get out of Sacred Mists what they put into it, for while the opportunities to grow and learn are present and available, it is each student who must determine and choose how much effort to expend and thus determine to a large extent what and how much they will receive in return.
I know that Sacred Mists is not for everyone; that is fine and as it should be. As Wiccans, we acknowledge the validity of every religion and spiritual path, and we treat them with respect even if we do not find them personally fulfilling. How could we do that and then put down someone who does not feel that Sacred Mists is for them?
However, the perpetuating of hurt and the smearing of Sacred Mists by those who are reacting, or by those who do not know all that has gone on in this situation, is not ethical. Yes, we all have a right to an opinion and we all have a right to voice that opinion. But we need to remember at all times the power of words and the responsibility that comes with voicing our own “personal truth.” Shame on those who speak their “personal truth” with the intent to harm.
Anyone who has any questions whatsoever or who wishes to comment is welcome and encouraged to contact me at raushanna@workingwitches.com. Contact information for Sacred Mists and Lady Raven can be found elsewhere in this blog.
Blessings!
Raushanna de Danu
Third Degree Dedicant
Student Council Member
“Whenever two or more of you are gathered, there is back-biting.” Please pardon my sardonic reinterpretation of the original Biblical quote but sometimes, we just have to ‘go there’.
I’m another of the students currently enrolled at Sacred Mists who is concerned with the content of some of the previous messages. Although I am relatively new to Sacred Mists, I am not new to the Wiccan path. In fact, I arrived at Sacred Mists having been “corded” through a different Mystery School.
The very first post of this forum talked about how Sacred Mists couldn’t offer valid ‘degrees’ and it seems that even at this much later date, that nobody has commented on how “degrees” are a system of recognition or ‘milestones’ along one’s spiritual path with many Wiccan organizations. The ATC (Aquarian Tabernacle Church) uses a very similar system and names those “steps” by “Degree”; ATC is also fully accredited in that its clergy members are ordained and have the same rights and privileges as clergy members from other faiths. I know this because my husband and I were legally handfasted by someone who is ordained through the ATC. So… the first criticism of the college about “degrees” not being legitimate seems to be based on a misconception about what a Wiccan “degree” actually is.
(As an interesting sidebar, for those people who are interested in pursuing a baccalaureate or post-graduate degree from an accredited university that involves the Craft, that is possible. There are universities in both England and in Amsterdam that now offer programs that include the practice of witchcraft in their curricula. Please feel free to look into this if it is something that inspires you. I know I have!)
So… with that bit of a problem out of the way, we move on to “issue” that people have with the tuition fees charged by Sacred Mists College and with the notion that Lady Raven Moonshadow is undertaking to run the College solely as a profitable enterprise for herself.
Teachers, university professors and other education professionals earn their living by sharing their knowledge and expertise with other people. That is their profession and for many, that is a vocational calling as well. My mother was a kindergarden teacher and I still believe that anybody who volunteered to spend her days with a crowd of five year olds had to be in it for more than the money. Beyond the system of public education, there are many teachers who earn their livings by sharing their knowledge and expertise with others. My astrology teacher charged fees for his courses - and with his thirty years of experience behind his fees, we were privileged indeed to have access to his enormous wealth of knowledge for so little actual money. Paying for education isn’t a new concept. Even “free” public education is paid for through the taxes collected for it. And for many people, an exclusive and expensive private education has been a great blessing. Paying enrollment and tuition fees for “normal” education through “normal” institutions whether publicly or privately funded is perfectly acceptable, but if we choose to pay a modest tuition fee for enrollment at a Wiccan college, somebody must be gouging us? The tuition fees paid at a university cover more than the salaries of the professors working there; an entire administrative structure is involved, not to mention buildings, maintenance, etc… That is why I am so confused by people being upset that Sacred Mists charges a small tuition “fee” for students to be enrolled at the College. The expectation that some people have that this should be a charitable endeavour on Lady Raven’s part is just ludicrous.
What is also interesting about Sacred Mists is that there is a huge “energetic exchange” of information beyond the core program. For many Wiccans, exchanging information rather than cash is an ethical way to further a path or to learn more about the Craft. While my degree studies have been informative, my exchanges with other students at the extension classes - which are all offered for FREE when you enroll - have also been invaluable! This important element of moving along your path by being mentored and helped by others is an enormous part of being enrolled at Sacred Mists and another reason why I am so happy to be a part of it. (Is this the first time I have mentioned how happy I am to be a part of this college? It won’t be the last!)
The notion that Lady Raven is not ethical because she has a job and makes a living is ridiculous. The notion that making that living by being an education professional and running a private “college” is just as ridiculous. Might I also interject that those ATC clergy are paid for their services? Members of the clergy - be they priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, etc… - embrace their vocations, take specialized training (at a *college* for which they pay tuition and which comes from instructors who are also compensated for their time!) and then make their living at their vocations!!! Nobody expects a theological college to run without charging tuition. Nobody expects a theology professor to go to work everyday without earning a paycheque. Nobody thinks that becoming a member of the clergy by attending the theological college and paying the tuition and then being ordained means working for nothing. (Even mendicant orders now have to house, feed and clothe their monks because not to creates a different problem - vagrants!) How is it that people can vilify Lady Raven for doing something that, in any other context, would be perfectly acceptable? I am confused.
Sacred Mists is a wonderful place to learn and grow as in your practice of the Craft and as a Wiccan. I am grateful for the opportunity. Lady Raven, however, is the inspiration behind my growth as a *person*. She has inspired me to be the best *person* I can be. There is no “tuition fee” that could possibly be connected to that. How much she cares for the students at Sacred Mists could not possibly be underestimated.
I am sorry that people feel so compelled to vilify that which they don’t understand. I am also sorry that people do not seem to grasp the concept that there is an ethical way to communicate information, instruction and training about Wicca and that covering costs by asking for fees isn’t unethical as part of the process. It seems to me that there are people who want Wicca to remain so far outside “the mainstream” that they lose sight of the reality that there is a monetary cost to running any sort of Wiccan educational institution, and that those places of learning can be amazing and extremely beneficial for many people.
I am also sorry that people feel so compelled to vilify people - especially Lady Raven - for not being exactly who they want her to be. That just seems to be intolerant to me.
If you want to explore the possibilities that Sacred Mists has to offer, please do. If you don’t choose the college as a means to further your journey on your path, that is your decision.
Blessings to you all on your journeys - wherever they may lead.
SheenaghBrighid
First Degree Dedicant
I wasn’t going to dignify this blog with a response, but you know the saying… if someone attacks you, you may chose to say nothing, but if someone attacks your teacher, you have to become a lion and defend them!
OK, let me get this straight. Someone said that they were considering joining the College, but were concerned with Lady Raven Moonshadow’s business career. Wow! Would you have joined the College of Sacred Mists and accepted Lady Raven Moonshadow’s credentials if she were penniless?!? This is beyond absurd! Is this now the qualification of someone spiritual? Being poor? So, the fact that I have a good paying job and drive an expensive new car must mean that I am not a good pagan, right? This is beyond ricidulous! I have never heard anything this shallow!
So Lady Raven Moonshadow is a capable and successful business woman. Good for her! That makes me respect her more, not less! Oh, that must mean that I am not a good pagan again, right?!?
What ever happened to harm none, Vanamee?!? You know, if you really want to get into it, your accusations of Lady Raven Moonshadow ridiculing you for being poor (which by the way, I don’t believe for a second!), are not very different from your pride in being more educated (using fancy words) and therefore better than everyone around you. You have done the same you are accusing Lady Raven Moonshadow of doing! Different flavor, but same nevertheless.
I am very disappointed that you have stooped to this level Van. Hitting below the belt doesn’t even cover it. But the sad part is that you are really only harming yourself. You have hurt many people, but the time will heal all. But you? What kind of impression has this action left on your heart? I hope you do take a moment and ask yourself that question…
I wish you all the best!
To the last person who posted, I’m just curious why you don’t believe Scott that he is poor? Obviously his finances can’t be in great shape or Raven wouldn’t have given him a scholarship? Do you have any reason for thinking he isn’t poor? Or did you not believe that Raven was ridiculing him for being poor? In that case, I don’t think Raven has denied it, and if she has it is just her word against his and you weren’t there for the conversation, so how would you know? Also, I’m not really sure how ridiculing someone for being poor is the same as having pride in being educated? When did pride and ridicule become the same thing? As for Raven’s business accomplishments, there is nothing wrong with being successful and capable in running a business. The problem comes when you are focused on the money, and not on the spirituality. When you are a spiritual leader, you must walk a very fine line and make enough money to take care of yourself and family, but to not let the money become more important than the things that really matter in life. And you must be willing to give up some of that money to help others less fortunate than you. I know a lot of people who would be very successful at running a business if they just had the money to get the business started. But often in order to make money, you need to have some money to start out with. It’s not the fact that Raven has money that might be making people question joining the school, its the fact that she has worked with some major big companies that do a lot of immoral things. And the fact that she feels she has no moral or spiritual obligation to share the large amounts of money she has with people who need her help. Once again, it sounds like you are a “fan of lady Raven” and are jumping to her defense, when she can defend herself just fine; and you are making assumptions about Scott/Van that you don’t have any facts to support, you are just trying to make it look like it was only him that caused this issue, when it seems from these posts that Scott and Lady Raven, and others at the school all had their parts to play in developing this conflict. I’m sure that Raven and Scott are saying to themselves right now that there are things they could have done differently that might have kept this conflict from building to such a difficult situation.
I agree with the person above named curious. It does sound like everyone is most of the people who posted here are fans of Raven’s and are probably posting because of her and her defense. I did hear that Raven makes a lot of money, enough to live in Napa Valley which is a highly expensive rich place to live. It is a shame that so many stones are being thrown here at Raven and Scott. From what I gather here, it was not just the two of them starting this. The lady/guy that nosed in on the phone conversations and private info is a lot to blame here. Sounds like she/he should have minded her own business and this would not have escalated to this extreme extent! What a shame that all who are suppose to believe and live by the
Wiccan Rede. And Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will.
Sound like a lot of you are not true Wiccans since you are casting such evil sayings and thoughts here. Look in the mirror before you cast your demons at anyone.
I found this blog late last night while looking for references on SM. I know they had “ties” with CW, as I was a student at CW when it closed, not even finished my first degree. It became too much, and with the rumors, drama, changes, I just could not keep up, as I was already in college courses and in the process of having my second child. Ok, so I lost some money… fact is, I enjoyed taking the course at my leisure, and find that when things are set in the structure it was, its easier for me to absorb and remember. (I might still have my printed material bound in storage)
Ive read this blog most of the night, and now this morning, tried to finish but found myself just utterly disgusted. Perfect Love and Perfect Trust” means just that. This blog, as hateful as it may be from both sides of the opinion poll, has brought out some interesting points, one in particular caught my attention.
When you join a school like this, and you find someone to confide in, it should go NO FURTHER! How DARE anyone listen in on any conversation and its a shame the High Priestess would even allow it. Then, to blatantly post this mans full name in a blog, just because he posts public information? who the hell are you?
Why does this concern ME? I am a mother of 2 beautiful children, who has been stalked for the past 7 years. My life as well as those of my two girls have been threatened, and trust is a BIG issue for me. I protect my home address and my real name with all that I am… and to think that if I were to have joined this school, where there is supposed to be perfect love and perfect trust… I would get neither.
Do you realize how sad that is? I fight to protect my kids, and all it takes is a bug up someones ass, and my real name or goddess knows what else could be let out on a blog because there is NO privacy or trust within the school. All it takes is this stalker to google my name at that point (which she does) and bingo shes got me and guess what.. Ive had the police here, and nothing they can do until she shows up at my home. by then what? Do you think you give a shit what happens to me or my kids because of your inability to respect privacy/confidentiality/trust?
UGGGGG… it soo disgusts me. I dont care about the money… what I care about is the fact that if I confide in my HP, that its between her and I. Like dr patient confidentiality. If I want to share my info online, it should be MY choice. Not some twit who was there and decided to listen in. That is SOOOO wrong on so many levels.
Trust does not just go for PRIVATE phone calls or emails, but also to orders from the store. Im sure you dont ship to PO boxes, so my personal address would be used.
Thank you to the nosy chick who decided to open her mouth and admit she violated a members privacy (regardless of what it was about), and that her HP allowed her to. Because otherwise, I could have made a very big mistake by joining this school and quite possibly put my kids in danger.
It might sound silly, but I am actually in tears over this whole issue. We stay hidden for many years, slowly coming out and fighting for our right to practice. Fighting the misconceptions, the haters, the blatant lies, and this is what happens within our own. Its gut wrenching.
L
If you look up at post 45 (and elsewhere), you will see how Liesel Jameson (secret member of the Sacred Mists “coven” by appointment of Lorien Carillo) libeled me. That post makes her crime a matter of public record. I recently received confirmation of some information that I would like to share so that people understand the truth about the rumors Ms. Jameson circulated.
First of all, I’d like to address my alleged paranoia about my former neighbors. A couple of weeks ago I received confirmation that the ex-neighbors in question were kicked out of their house because the building was too filthy and unsafe for habitation. I know this doesn’t prove that one of them threatened my life, but it does point to the conditions my family and I had to endure. I wonder if Lorien Carillo or her wealthy cohorts would like to leave their plush accommodations and live near such circumstances? If they think they would, perhaps they should first review some of my video footage of the screaming, insults, vandalism and other frightening behavior that we had to put up with at all hours of the day and night.
Second of all, I’d like to address Ms. Jameson’s false statements about my alleged culpability in being removed from my former Master’s degree program. A few weeks ago, I received a letter from the director of judicial services at MSU stating that I have never once been disciplined at that school for any reason. Just today I received confirmation that all of my Sallie Mae loans - and we’re talking years’ worth (a minimum of $20,000) - have been dropped on the grounds that two of the professors at my former university libeled me.
Hmm, SA. It looks like, if you had only listened to me, you would have had the opportunity to present a major case against MSU. But I imagine your attitude toward me had been poisoned by what you were hearing from the Mists administration.
Finally, as for Ms. Jameson saying that a “scholarship” was paying my tuition, perhaps Sacred Mists would like to refund the hundreds of dollars I paid while I was there? I did pay month after month, and I have the receipts to prove it. Ms. Jameson neglected to say that I had taken the “scholarship” only for a very brief period and, when I was forced to leave the Mists, I had been using it for only about a month - even if I was being told to “dumb [my]self down” on the grounds that I was receiving this money. What Ms. Jameson calls Sacred Mists’ generosity was really only a tool of manipulation. Perhaps the Cauldron of Hope program should now be called the Cauldron of Conformity program.
I just wanted to go on the record to clear up these lies (in a place where I won’t be censored by the Sacred Mists administration). I can provide proof that this information is correct to anyone who cares to e-mail me. But I WON’T give you my new address (thankfully, no one from the Mists knows it). I’m sorry I ever confided in people I thought were friends at Sacred Mists. If I hadn’t gotten carried away with the Sacred Mists illusion of perfect love and perfect trust, I’d never have mentioned these difficulties to anyone there in the first place. Of course, the thing that hurts most is knowing that allegedly dear friends of mine at the Mists (including an advisor I truly loved) were not only privy to what the administration was doing, they even did their best to betray me when they saw that it would please charismatic and dangerous “Arch-Priestess” Carillo.
And I just have to ask… Gavin Bone and Janet Farrar: Knowing, as you must, that Sacred Mists is a criminal organization, how can you continue to affiliate yourselves with it? I thought you were professionals. Did you also get fooled by Lorien Carillo’s cult of personality?
And please keep in mind that I am maintaining many confidences for people still at the Mists. If I told you all I know about Sacred Mists and what goes on there, and if you care at all about the life of the spirit, you might well be physically ill.
In closing, I’d just like to say that I am now an ordained pagan minister and enjoying my time as a father, writer and educator. Though I will always carry scars with me from my Sacred Mists experience, I’m glad to say I’ve been able to move on. I’ve had some reports of lies being spread about me at Sacred Mists (even within the past couple of months), but I am happy to say I’ve reached the point where I can just shrug it off. The people who really know me have shown that they know when the truth isn’t being told, even if they aren’t allowed to say so over at Sacred Mists.
Blessings,
Scott
Finally! I’ve found the precedent I need.
You see, I’ve never been legally prevented from sharing insider information about Sacred Mists. However, I left behind a number of people I care for, so I didn’t want to share such information if it might make them uncomfortable. And there is much I still won’t share because it touches on individual persons who haven’t been set up as members of leadership. Even though my biggest betrayal at the Mists came from my advisor and, at one time, closest online friend, I was still very careful to adhere to a high standard on this matter.
However, I recently discovered that students are now being allowed to share ritual essays and lesson information outside the Mists. Thank you, Jasmeine Moonsong - I discovered this through your excellent public blog available through http://wiccanmoonsong.blogspot.com/.
This blog provides a moral and legal precedent for me to discuss one of the major reasons I left the Mists. You see, one reason I was forced to leave was because I was being coerced into performing the New Student Ritual. This ritual was disturbing for me because it required me to evoke “Lady Raven”. And, more than just this, I had to describe her in certain terms. I had to say she was addressing the members of the audience as her children. I had to describe her as “a beautiful woman whose aura glows warm and bright” and I had to tell participants, “She takes both of your hands in hers and smiles at you with such love and compassion you feel as though you have known this woman all of your days.” And it wasn’t as if she were there. To my knowledge, Carillo (”Lady Raven”) considers these rituals beneath her and has never attended one.
When I tried to air my concerns with the director of the New Student rituals, I was “tattled on” to Lorien Carillo. Carillo didn’t care to address my legitimate concerns, though. But she did have this to say in an e-mail:
“You not being comfortable with the ritual as it stands, or participating in it, is of course your choice and one I will support completely. However, you are currently attending Sacred Mists, and doing so within the Cauldron of Hope program. If welcoming students into our program here, or feeling good about new students entering, is a challenge for you then I would strongly suggest that you consider that heavily. Support of the program is something that should be embraced by all members. When there comes a time you are no longer in support of the program, and you have done what you can to work on whatever it is that is creating the feelings for you to no avail, then I believe it is time for you to consider departure.”
The implied threat and doublespeak you see here is so typical of how Carillo indoctrinates people and builds her cult of personality. I’m so glad I can finally share that information. And, please remember, this is the one, small example that I can share at this point. It’s only a taste of what I was compelled to negotiate at, as the BBB might call it, “Scared Mists”.
May the Blessings of Tyr Be With All Who Read This,
Scott
I just wanted to write a quick thanks to Wiccan Moonsong, who also discloses SM ritual and lesson information for those who are curious about the school before starting to pay the fees. This one is at http://wiccanmoonsong.blogspot.com.
Blessings,
Scott
Another person who believes Sacred Mists’ leadership should be held accountable for its actions sent me this link today: http://witchesdiary.com/lilyth/?tag=wicca.
This is a website where a member of SM leadership describes the posh retreat student council members are treated to. It’s just another reason to eschew this jetsetting crowd who play at being goddesses. Trust me, even this level of wealth just won’t buy you happiness.
Thanks to everyone for the information and links about Sacred Mists. Keep ‘em comin’.
Blessings,
Scott
Well, I wasn’t going to say anything more about Sacred Mists until one of you sent me another link about their lack of professionalism. However, Lilyth of Sacred Mists leadership (that’s a false, “magickal” name by the way) decided to write about the “smear campaign” she’s being forced to endure on her blog. So I’ll provide a rebuttal here. I would do it on Lilyth’s blog, but she’s a part of the SM censorship team, so I doubt that would work.
Here are some of the things she (or Lorien Carrillo, who may well be telling her what to write and how to think) has to say.
She writes, “I keep to myself, I do my job, I spend time with students and fellow Leadership. I speak from my heart and spirit with truth and grace[...] I am facing this challenge with grace and light as is befitting my path as a Priestess of Sacred Mists and a Servant to my Goddess.” Wow - what an ego! You keep to yourself? If you are so quiet and unassuming, why are you posting this to a public website at all? And this talk about truth and grace that comes from your wonderful spirit doesn’t speak of the quiet, modest person you present when talking about yourself. Perhaps Sacred Mists has distorted your picture of yourself. And of course you claim to be such a hard worker, but it was like pulling teeth to ever get one or two sentences out of you when I wanted to submit a ritual or class or chat to you - not to mention getting ANYONE to respond on behalf of the Shoppe. In fact, didn’t you have to retire as director of leadership at one point because you just didn’t want to bother with the hassle?
Lilyth speaks of someone “who is posting volumes of untruths about Sacred Mists leadership”. Does she mean me? If so, I wish she would tell what those alleged untruths are, but she’s so busy telling us how goddess-like and graceful she is that I guess she forget to post the facts.
Her post continues, “In this latest, it seems as if it is assumed the Vacation (which is our annual group retreat) in which I went on last year with several of my fellow Student Council Members was “treated” to this retreat, which of course implies that it was “paid for” by Sacred Mists. This is simply not the truth. Truth is, the retreat was paid for by each member and was hosted by me at my timeshare which was purchased many years ago when I worked for a large corporate dot com company before the dot com bubble burst.”
It’s odd you would say that, since you are currently working for Sacred Mists - a dot com that rakes in beaucoup bucks every year.
No, I didn’t assume anyone was treated to a vacation, so I don’t know where you got that information. In fact, I’ve seen how only the wealthy are allowed to be fully active members of leadership - the peasants like me are brushed aside and fed sickeningly sweet platitudes. So it makes sense that only those wealthy enough to afford the retreat could come play witch with you. In fact, it was your mentor Carrillo who told me I’d never reach the upper tiers in the Mists because I’m opposed to people being ridiculously rich. She told me at one point that I’d go far if I could just change how I felt about capitalism. But no one told me when I started that I’d better just move on down the road if I didn’t believe in being rich. Of course, that’s because you wanted my money, despite your own wealth.
But it’s really the content of the post about the retreat that worries me. You see, first Lilyth blames people who feel they cannot connect through online rituals (current Misters - you’ll want to read what she says…). This argument implies that we need to point fingers at those who can’t feel what Lilyth feels during online rituals. But then it gets confusing when Lilyth claims - even though she’s a fully-fledge SM Priestess - that it was at the retreat when she led her first ritual. So, which is it, “Priestess” Lilyth? Had you ever led a ritual before the retreat or not?
You speak about how your retreat supposedly helped the Sacred Mists “tradition.” I recently had an e-mail from one of your Misters asking me to run an “underground Sacred Mists” so they could learn without having to interface with the “two-faced leaders” of the website. I’ll tell you what I told her. Since when are some pilfered web pages, a couple of fancy knots and a pledge of loyalty to a crazy rich lady a tradition?
I look over this diary and see a lost person with so much potential. Lilyth, the gods love you, and they want something more for your talents than you can realize at Carrillo’s School for Fluff. It would be very hard for you, I know, to find a legitimate path that focuses on your development as a spiritual being instead of just telling your you’re the Queen of “grace[...] grace [...] grace [...]” But you do have the fortitude to do it. Wake up. Listen to your heart, and find the strength to break away.
I may not be graceful and rich, but I’m honest. I just want Sacred Mists to start being honest, too. So why do they keep refusing to speak in public forums where everyone is allowed to be heard?
Blessings of Mercury Retrograde,
Rev. Scott Hill
I’ve recently had news that Lorien Carrillo was forced to register Sacred Mists with the BBB. She may never have a legitimate coven, but she’s a small step closer to running a legitimate business. Unfortunately, Sacred Mists was only registered last month and there are already four complaints on file (involving delivery issues, refund and exchange issues and sales practice issues). It is now possible to file official complaints against Lorien’s company through the BBB at
http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/internet-selling-services/sacred-mists-in-napa-ca-62632
Blessings,
S.H.
S.H.
Clearly you’re mistaken on many levels. So I’ll quote you:
” I’m glad to say I’ve been able to move on. ”
“…but I am happy to say I’ve reached the point where I can just shrug it off.”
As I’m sure you can see, none of the above appears to be the case. It’s more like you’re sticking like glue and won’t stop until you get what you want, which, from where I’m sitting, looks to be making the entire of the organization crumble into a heap at your command. S.H., I hope you realize that won’t happen, and beyond that, the fact that you’re appearing that way to me (and others) is reprehensible, even worse than anything that you’re trying to present the organization as being or doing that you feel so strongly about. Honestly, you’re destroying your case.
Moving on to truth and facts:
1) The moment that anyone has a complaint filed with the BBB, they have a record. All of the records you are referring to are much older than one month, in fact, the first is many, many years ago. Please contact the BBB for information as to the dates of such reports, if you are so inclined, to ensure that you are reporting facts rather than constant assumptions and, most times, what appear to be outright lies. I long ago checked into the BBB reports. They’re far older than you’re reporting above.
2) It appears that the group became an Accredited Business of the BBB last month. This means that they went under rigorous scrutiny by the BBB on many levels and came out with a grade of A- and was granted Accredited Business affiliation with the BBB. Not all businesses have this, and good for the organization for achieving it. That says quite a bit about their dedication. Having a few negative issues, all of which were satisfactorily worked through according to the reports, says a lot for a large organization such as this.
3) You should be ashamed of yourself for bashing a member of a group who is clearly happy with her path and affiliation and is posting on her own blog.
S.H. I’ve read all of this banter, and some of it is truly tragic on both sides of the fence. However you, sir, should let it go and move on, for it seems as if you won’t until you accomplish what you are setting out to do: tear down a group that you have pure loathing and hatred for.
As far as putting together an “underground SM group”, how ridiculous. Why do that, and why would you want to if you think it’s such a crock that it’s even a tradition. Have “them” go with your tradition that you speak so highly of in a post in this thread. You also continue to spout “this person said this” and “this person said that” and “someone sent me X”. Stop speaking for others and admit that you’re the one spending countless hours on this hades-bent mission of negativity that you’ve gotten yourself on regarding the head of the group and let it go. You’d said your peace. Long ago. Leave it alone and move on.
I’ve read the blogs that you’d linked. Interestingly, you’ve done nothing but support the fact that it appears to be a solid organization that has helped many. There’s a lot of people that aren’t going to be happy with groups here and there. Truth was said when you can’t make everyone happy all of the time. They didn’t make you happy. You’re not happy. So let it go and stop this crap that is simply doing nothing but making you appear to be out for blood with a group that isn’t bothering you in the slightest.
Here’s hoping this stops and you start being the Wiccan Reverend you claim yourself to be. Frankly, for someone on such a high horse, you’re making yourself out to be quite small and low these days.
I might also point out that initially your posts were very much about opinion and experience. All well and good. At this point, because you are posting very clear and easily proven untruths about the owner of the organization as well as others in the organization, you have stepped into the legal realm of slander. Opinion is protected, as is freedom of speech, but when you cross over into lies or insinuations that harm reputation, as I’m seeing you do here, you are playing a very dangerous game. Take that for what it’s worth.
I’m going to be steering clear of anything that you’re involved in, any anyone on this blog. I’ve never seen such insanity before, and that’s saying a lot. Good luck, mates. Particularly you, S.H. I think you’ll need it.
Again, someone is arguing in favor of Sacred Mists who won’t reveal her- or himself, which is typical. May I assume you’re one of Lorien’s pseudonyms? Or did she just send you to post so she wouldn’t have to get her nails dirty?
I never said I would consent to lead an underground Sacred Mists. If you read my post, you know that’s because it’s only a program of study - not a legitimate tradition. You might want to go back and peruse that again.
I didn’t say when the four complaints were filed. I just said the newly registered business already has these complaints. And, by the way, that’s far from the only site where you’ll find business complaints about the Mists.
I know I could never tear down the Sacred Mists organization, just as I could never tear down Exxon-Mobil, Wal-Mart or any other amoral company with big money to back it up. I’m only trying to let people know something about the organization before they are libeled, ridiculed and made to invest a lot of money as I was. I believe that’s a noble goal, but I allow you to do something that Lorien seems to hate - form your own opinion. That’s why I’m posting in an open forum and including my name and link. And, hey, if you’re an egotistical, fluff-inclined rich woman who wants a really easy curriculum and lots of online parties, I encourage you to join up with Sacred Mists.
I also encourage people to read these blogs (which is why I provided the links). Jasmeine, Wiccan and Lilyth are all lovely, talented people who want to improve their spirituality, but they all show signs of not being able to decide about spiritual issues (and many other issues) for themselves. And Lorien’s cult of personality only makes them denigrate themselves all the more while they elevate her to a false pedestal.
You see, Lorien is great at coercing people into going against their better judgment, as she did when she directed my Mists advisor to betray me by handing over confidential information - yes, it isn’t just Liesel who can’t keep from “sharing” when Lorien is telling her what to do. I was shocked that such a wonderful person could give in so completely to Lorien’s whims, but that was before I really considered how carefully Lorien’s system of brain washing is embedded into the program. That was one of the moments that really opened my eyes.
If Sacred Mists wants to try suing me, let them. I’d win - and I have some interesting evidence that they may not want to come out in court. I’m not the idiot Lorien assumes.
As for your veiled threats, I’m not too concerned about someone who doesn’t even know the difference between slander and libel. I’m just grateful the Misters no longer have access to my home address, since I’ve also had some threats from former “friends” in leadership.
Why don’t you stop using the word “truth” as a mask (which I find laughably ironic) and tell us who you are? I would think that would do volumes to help your case.
Blessings,
Scott
Here’s a thought.
let. it. go.
let. it. go.
let. it. go.
If you have “evidence”, present it here. Why not get it all out in the open, S.H? Or, be done with it. Stop playing these games and mussing up the pagan world with your venom about this group. It’s sad, very sad, that you seem to not be able to move on even though you say you have in your own posts.
let. it. go.
It will do you a world of good.
Again, S.H. You’re always welcome to have your opinion, and have it you’ve had. But you keep jack hammering at the same chunk of concrete and I think your point has been served. You are now only appearing angry, hostile and deflating the points you made in the first place, many months after the fact. This indicates you haven’t let it go, perhaps are unable to and are just looking like you’ve got another agenda than what you present as a simple sharing of opinion.
If your only goal is to ensure that people have heard and can form their own opinion, then your purpose and goal has been served, don’t you think. That’s all I’m sayin.
let. it. go.
Truth.
Hear now the words of the witches,
The secrets we hid in the night,
When dark was our destiny’s pathway,
That now we bring forth into light.
Mysterious water and fire,
The earth and the wide-ranging air,
By hidden quintessence we know them,
And will keep silent and dare.
The birth and rebirth of all nature,
The passing of winter and spring,
We share with the life universal
Rejoice in the magical ring.
Four times in the year the Great Sabbat
Returns, and the witches are seen
At Lammas and Candlemas dancing,
On May Eve and old Hallowe’en,
When day-time and night-time are equal,
When sun is at greatest and least,
The four Lesser Sabbats are summoned,
And Witches gather in feast
Thirteen silver moons in a year are,
Thirteen is the coven’s array.
Thirteen times at Esbats make merry,
For each golden year and day.
The power that was passed down the age,
Each time between woman and man,
Each century unto the other,
Ere time and the ages began.
When drawn is the magical circle,
By sword or athame of power,
Its compass between two worlds lies,
In land of the shades for the hour.
This world has no right then to know it,
And world of beyond will tell naught.
The oldest of Gods are invoked there,
The Greatest of magic is wrought.
For the two are mystical pillars,
that stand at the gates of the shrine,
And two are the powers of nature,
The forms and the force divine.
The dark and the light in succession,
The opposites each unto each,
Shown forth as a God and a Goddess:
Of this our ancestors teach.
By night he’s the wild wind’s rider
The Horn’d One, the King of the Woodland
The dweller in green forest glades.
She is youthful or old as she pleases,
She sails the torn clouds in her barque,
The bright silver lady of midnight,
The crone who weaves spells in the dark.
The master and mistress of magic,
That dwell in the deeps of the mind,
Immortal and ever-renewing,
with power to free or to bind.
And Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it love that harms none,
For this is the only commandment
By Magic of old, be it done.
HARM NONE. We all come from the Mother and to Her we will return. We are all brothers and sisters ~ we are all ONE.
Please do not hurt each other. I wish you peace.
Blessed be.
Drop the Hot Coal
“Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.” - The Buddha
Who is the person that is bugging you? Take 15 minutes to send them the love and compassion that you would want for yourself.
What You Focus On Grows
Every single minute you and I have a choice. You can only focus on one thing at a time. What will your response be? I am challenging myself to make choices that are less about wounding or more about wonderful. Gratitude has always been a lifesaver for me. Have you tried it lately?
Take 15 minutes a focus all your attention of what you are grateful for.
Mirror, Mirror
I see this rage being vented at me as a reflection of the yet unhealed anger I have within myself. Even though I am uncomfortable admitting it, I wouldn’t have attracted this sort of experience unless it reflected something inside of me. I can use this situation for learning and healing. I can choose to embrace all of me and forgive my Inner Bully.
Take 15 minutes and forgive yourself. Embrace all of your humanity. Embrace that other person with loving and compassion.
Service Is As Simple As A Hug
Take 15 seconds and hug a person you are having a challenge with in your mind. Take 5 minutes and hug 5 people. (You’ll be amazed at how long a minute is… and how much better you’ll feel.)
I wish you peace.
By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try. The world is beyond the winning.
– Lao Tzu
Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point in order to move forward.
– Author Unknown
Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head.
– Ann Landers
Inner peace can be reached only when we practice forgiveness. Forgiveness is letting go of the past, and is therefore the means for correcting our misperceptions.
– Gerald Jampolsky
Let go. Why do you cling to pain? There is nothing you can do about the wrongs of yesterday. It is not yours to judge. Why hold on to the very thing which keeps you from hope and love?
– Leo Buscaglia
People have a hard time letting go of their suffering. Out of a fear of the unknown, they prefer suffering that is familiar.
– Thich Nhat Hanh
Some think it’s holding on that makes one strong; sometimes it’s letting go.
– Sylvia Robinson
Stand up and walk out of your history.
– Phil McGraw
The harder you fight to hold on to specific assumptions, the more likely there’s gold in letting go of them.
– John Seely Brown
Think about any attachments that are depleting your emotional reserves. Consider letting them go.
– Oprah Winfrey
Truly loving another means letting go of all expectations. It means full acceptance, even celebration of another’s personhood.
– Karen Casey
When you become good at the art of letting sufferings go, then you’ll come to realize what you were dragging around with you. And for that, no one else other than you was responsible.
– Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh
I like the way you think, Truth. Here’s one for you!
Love is but a song we sing
Fear is the way we die
You can make the mountains ring
or make the angels cry
Though the dove is on the wing
and you may not know why
Come on people now
smile on your brother
everybody get together
and try to love one another right now
Some may come and some may go
He will surely pass
When the one that left us here
returns for us at last
We are but a moment’s sunlight
fading in the grass
Come on people now
smile on your brother
everybody get together
try to love one another right now
If you hear the song I sing
you will understand…listen
You hold the key to love and fear
all in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
It’s there at your command
Come on people now
smile on your brother
Everybody get together
try to love one another right now
I said…..
Come on people now
smile on your brother
Everybody get together
try to love one another right now
right now
right now
I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
Oh yes I can make it now, the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is the rainbow I’ve been prayin’ for
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
Look all around, there’s nothin’ but blue skies
Look straight ahead, nothin’ but blue skies
I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Here is the rainbow I’ve been prayin’ for
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
and I say it’s all right
Little darling, it’s been a long cold lonely winter
Little darling, it feels like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
and I say it’s all right
Little darling, the smiles returning to the faces
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
and I say it’s all right
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Little darling, I feel that ice is slowly melting
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been clear
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
and I say it’s all right
It’s all right
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There’s nothing you can do that can’t be done.
Nothing you can sing that can’t be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It’s easy.
There’s nothing you can make that can’t be made.
No one you can save that can’t be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you
in time - It’s easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There’s nothing you can know that isn’t known.
Nothing you can see that isn’t shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn’t where you’re meant to be.
It’s easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There’s a reason for the sunshiny sky
There’s a reason why I’m feeling so high
Must be the season when those love lights shine all around us
So let that feeling grab you deep inside
And send you reeling where your love can’t hide
And then go stealing through the moonlit night with your lover
Just let your love flow like a mountain stream
And let your love grow with the smallest of dreams
And let your love show and you’ll know what I mean it’s the season
Let your love fly like a bird on the wind
And let your love find you to all living things
And let your love shine and you’ll know what I mean that’s the reason
There’s a reason for the warm sweet nights
And there’s a reason for the candle lights
Must be the season when those love lights shine all around us
So let that wonder take you into space
And lay you under its loving embrace
Just feel the thunder as it warms your face you can’t hold back
Just let your love flow like a mountain stream
And let your love grow with the smallest of dreams
And let your love show and you’ll know what I mean it’s the season
Let your love fly like a bird on the wind
And let your love find you to all living things
And let your love shine and you’ll know what I mean that’s the reason
Just let your love flow like a mountain stream
And let your love grow with the smallest of dreams
And let your love show and you’ll know what I mean it’s the season
Let your love fly like a bird on the wind
And let your love find you to all living things
And let your love shine and you’ll know what I mean that’s the reason.
As sleepwalkers we have given our scientists the awesome task of unraveling the mysteries of the universe in order to answer our questions about life, creation, evolution, and death.
Physicists confirm this beautiful collaboration between God and us, as spirit children, in experiencing this ongoing process, called life, when they work within the conceptual framework of quantum mechanics.
While we assigned them this role, which they assumed with great relish, we told ourselves that we need not worry about such complicated matters. The best thing we could do is get out of their way and assume a posture of mindless living. Something sleepwalkers are very good at.
Diligent science and centuries of intense scrutiny of the life process and our relationship with the universe has evolved into a framework of explanation called “quantum mechanics”. Within this field of science and physics there are numerous books, scientific formulas, mathematical equations, and revered scholars who have endeavored to answer our most profound inquiries.
Not wishing to call their conclusions absolute, they have nonetheless returned to us with their hypothesis of what is going on, and they seem to be as perplexed as we are. Their answers have as much to do with mysticism and spirituality as they do with science.
What they found was that from the evidence accumulated over vast periods of study and worldwide collaboration, the real key to understanding the universe is, you and I. All the experimentation about what is out there is proportional and dependent upon what is in here.
The phenomenon that defines all experimentation into the mechanics of the universe is that the outcome of the experiment is always influenced by the intention of the experimenter. Are we looking at our external reality, or are we merely observing our interaction with it? The latter seems to be the case.
This runs counter to the popular opinion of the sleepwalkers of the world, who contend that what is out there is a controlling influence over what is in here. That has been the prevailing philosophy of the paradigm of separation, which contends that we are separate from what is out there. Now our scientists and physicists, through quantum mechanics, are telling us that what is in here influences and dictates what is out there.
This sounds more in alignment with unity consciousness that says we are all one with all that is and we have the ability to create the world and universe of our intentions. When we are conscious of our intentions we can create a world that serves us better.
When we continue as sleepwalkers, we have unconscious intentions that seem to serve us in the short-term, but will not hold up to accountability when viewed from a state of true awareness and the perspective of consciousness.
The role we have assumed as sleepwalkers has not held us responsible for our individual and collective behaviors. Now, quantum mechanics has come down on the side of the spiritual concept of oneness.
We can ignore mystics and spiritualists who try to wake us up. Are we going to ignore our revered scientists, physicists, and thinkers also? It is your decision. The experimenter influences every experiment. The creator of the experience and the intention of the creator influences every experience. You and I are the creators of all the experiences that ever happen in this ongoing process of life.
What is going on out there is totally dependent upon what in going on in here. When what is going on in here is based in love and awareness, we will change the world, as we know it.
What a beautiful, extraordinary concept. When you take it to heart, you understand more fully why you are so important to the world right now. You are the one who brings the love and change the world so desperately needs. Don’t depend on others. They will change also in their own way.
Be concerned with your change. Be conscious of yourself and what you can create to bring peace and love to this world. You are the leader. Lead us by your example. Be the bringer of the light. Light the way and others will follow, but always remember, love is the answer.
Richard Blackstone is an award winning author and international speaker on Love, Oneness & Creation.
Ohh definately feels much more clear and calming in here now *grins*
*sprays lovely lavendar air freshner and lights a couple of white candles*
Love to all…
PW
I saw this link on another website and while at first I was sorry to read through the earlier posts, I am so happy this blog has taken a new direction! This bodes well for all of us!
As we approach 2012 we are being given a new opportunity to evolve! We can leave behind what is no longer needed and move forward with new direction!
Thank you to those who posted uplifting words!
I love you.
When you’re down and troubled
And you need some loving care
And nothing, nothing is going right
Close your eyes and think of me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest night
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a friend
If the sky above you
Grows dark and full of clouds
And that old north wind begins to blow
Keep your head together
And call my name out loud
Soon you’ll hear me knocking at your door
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
Ain’t it good to know that you’ve got a friend
When people can be so cold
They’ll hurt you, and desert you
And take your soul if you let them
Oh, but don’t you let them
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a friend
There’s got to be a morning after
If we can hold on through the night
We have a chance to find the sunshine
Let’s keep on lookin’ for the light
Oh, can’t you see the morning after
It’s waiting right outside the storm
Why don’t we cross the bridge together
And find a place that’s safe and warm
It’s not too late, we should be giving
Only with love can we climb
It’s not too late, not while we’re living
Let’s put our hands out in time
There’s got to be a morning after
We’re moving closer to the shore
I know we’ll be there by tomorrow
And we’ll escape the darkness
We won’t be searchin’ any more
There’s got to be a morning after
(There’s got to be a morning after)
There’s got to be a morning after
(There’s got to be a morning after)
There’s got to be a morning after
(There’s got to be a morning after)
There’s got to be a morning after
(There’s got to be a morning after)
There’s got to be a morning after
I’d like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves
I’d like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I’d like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company
I’d like to see the world for once
all standing hand in hand
and hear them echo through the hills
for peace throughout the land
That’s the song I hear
Let the world sing today
a song of peace
that echoes on
and never goes away
I’d like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I’d like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I’d like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves
I’d like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I’d like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company
See the curtains hanging in the window
In the evening on a Friday night
A little light shining through the window
Lets me know that everything’s all right
Summer breeze, well it makes me feel fine
Blowing through the jasmine in my mind
Summer breeze, it makes me feel fine
Blowing through my…making me feel-right
Making me feel, making me feel fine, makes me feel fine
Blowing through the jasmine in my mind
See the paper laying on the sidewalk,
A little music from the house next door… who lives next door?
So I walk on up to the doorstep,
Through the screen and then across the floor
Summer breeze, well it makes me feel fine
Blowing through the jasmine in my mind
Summer breeze, it makes me feel fine
Blowing through my…making me feel-right
Making me feel, making me feel fine, makes me feel fine
Blowing through the jasmine in my mind
Oh, sweet days are summer, the jasmine’s in bloom (ladadaaa…)
July is dressed up and playing a tune
And when I come ho-home, from a hard day’s work
And you’re waiting there
Oh yes you’re waiting there, without a care in the world
I see the smile a-waiting in the kitchen
a-Food a-cooking and a-plates a-there for two
You, I see the arms that reach out to hold me
In the evening when the day is through
Summer breeze, well it makes me feel fine
Blowing through the jasmine in my mind
Summer breeze, it makes me feel fine
Blowing through my…making me feel-right
Making me feel, making me feel fine, makes me feel right
Blowing through the jasmine in my
Blowing, a-blowing
Blowing through the jasmine in my
Blowing, a-blowing
Blowing through the jasmine in my
Blowing, a-blowing
Blowing through the jasmine in my
Blowing, a-blowing
a-blowing through the jasmine in my mind
Uplifting quotes
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who make excuses and those who get results. An excuse person will find any excuse for why a job was not done, and a results person will find any reason why it can be done. Be a creator, not a reactor. — Alan Cohen, A Deep Breath Of Life
You can’t have a better tomorrow if you are thinking about yesterday all the time. — Charles F. Kettering
Cherish your visions; cherish your ideals; cherish the music that stirs in your heart, the beauty that forms in your mind, the loveliness that drapes your purest thoughts, for out of them will grow delightful conditions, all heavenly environment; of these if you but remain true to them, your world will at last be built..” — James Allen, 1864-1912, British-born American Essayist, Author of “As a Man Thinketh”
The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. — Alvin Toffler
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. — Ralph Waldo Emerson
The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change and the REALIST adjusts his sails. (author unknown)
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. — William James
In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life: It goes on. — Robert Frost
Uplifting quotes on Empowerment
Begin doing what you want to do now. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand — and melting like a snowflake. — Marie Beyon Ray
My dad always used to say, “If you’re falling off a cliff, you may as well try to fly. You have nothing to lose.” — Captain John Sheridan, Babylon 5
Things turn out the best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out. — John Wooden
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you’re alone with. — Wayne Dyer
When we blame, we give away our power. — Greg Anderson
Maturity is the ability to express one’s own feelings and convictions balanced with consideration for the thoughts and feelings of others. — Hrand Saxenian
Now Ive been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun
Oh Ive been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be, some day its going to come
Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again
Now Ive been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun
Oh peace train sounding louder
Glide on the peace train
Come on now peace train
Yes, peace train holy roller
Everyone jump upon the peace train
Come on now peace train
Get your bags together, go bring your good friends too
Cause its getting nearer, it soon will be with you
Now come and join the living, its not so far from you
And its getting nearer, soon it will all be true
Now Ive been crying lately, thinking about the world as it is
Why must we go on hating, why cant we live in bliss
Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home
again
When you’re down and troubled
And you need a helping hand
And nothing, whoa nothing is going right.
Close your eyes and think of me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest nights.
You just call out my name,
And you know wherever I am
I’ll come running, oh yeah baby
To see you again.
Winter, spring, summer, or fall,
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You’ve got a friend.
If the sky above you
Should turn dark and full of clouds
And that old north wind should begin to blow
Keep your head together and call my name out loud
And soon I will be knocking upon your door.
You just call out my name and you know where ever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you got to do is call
And I’ll be there, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hey, ain’t it good to know that you’ve got a friend?
People can be so cold.
They’ll hurt you and desert you.
Well they’ll take your soul if you let them.
Oh yeah, but don’t you let them.
You just call out my name and you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
Oh babe, don’t you know that,
Winter spring summer or fall,
Hey now, all you’ve got to do is call.
Lord, I’ll be there, yes I will.
You’ve got a friend.
You’ve got a friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a friend.
You’ve got a friend.
Sometimes in our lives we all have pain
We all have sorrow
But if we are wise
We know that there’s always tomorrow
Lean on me, when you’re not strong
And I’ll be your friend
I’ll help you carry on
For it won’t be long
‘Til I’m gonna need
Somebody to lean on
Please swallow your pride
If I have things you need to borrow
For no one can fill those of your needs
That you don’t let show
Lean on me, when you’re not strong
And I’ll be your friend
I’ll help you carry on
For it won’t be long
‘Til I’m gonna need
Somebody to lean on
If there is a load you have to bear
That you can’t carry
I’m right up the road
I’ll share your load
If you just call me
So just call on me brother, when you need a hand
We all need somebody to lean on
I just might have a problem that you’d understand
We all need somebody to lean on
Lean on me when you’re not strong
And I’ll be your friend
I’ll help you carry on
For it won’t be long
Till I’m gonna need
Somebody to lean on
Lean on me…
I have personally found the information from Scott to be very helpful. It has led me to look at other websites and to see that others have also had problems at Sacred Mists. This has kept me from making the mistake of joining their coven, school, I’m not sure what exactly to call it. It just really sound to me like its more of a social network, a group of like-minded friends. Nothing wrong with that, its just not the environment for everybody and not the group for me. It sounds like Raven either needs to be stricter about who she lets join so that people whose beliefs are more like hers will be the only ones joining; or she needs to be more accepting of different beliefs within paganism. All Christians don’t have the same beliefs, just as all pagans don’t have the same beliefs.
Truth, you are welcome to defend RAven and sacred mists, just as Scott is welcome to voice his concerns with his experience there. But there is no reason to be so upset with Scott for saying negative things about sacred mists. Freedom of speech my friends, isn’t it wonderful and sometimes scary, but its necessary to our freedom.
My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin’ ‘fore I knew it, and as he grew
He’d say “I’m gonna be like you dad
You know I’m gonna be like you”
And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin’ home dad?
I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son
You know we’ll have a good time then
My son turned ten just the other day
He said, “Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let’s play
Can you teach me to throw”, I said “Not today
I got a lot to do”, he said, “That’s ok”
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, “I’m gonna be like him, yeah
You know I’m gonna be like him”
And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin’ home son?
I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son
You know we’ll have a good time then
Well, he came home from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
“Son, I’m proud of you, can you sit for a while?”
He shook his head and said with a smile
“What I’d really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please?”
And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin’ home son?
I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son
You know we’ll have a good time then
I’ve long since retired, my son’s moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, “I’d like to see you if you don’t mind”
He said, “I’d love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job’s a hassle and kids have the flu
But it’s sure nice talking to you, Dad
It’s been sure nice talking to you”
And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He’d grown up just like me
My boy was just like me
And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin’ home son?
I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son
You know we’ll have a good time then
If I had a hammer
I’d hammer in the morning
I’d hammer in the evening
All over this land
I’d hammer out danger
I’d hammer out a warning
I’d hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land
If I had a bell
I’d ring it in the morning
I’d ring it in the evening
All over this land
I’d ring out danger
I’d ring out a warning
I’d ring out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land
If I had a song
I’d sing it in the morning
I’d sing it in the evening
All over this land
I’d sing out danger
I’d sing out a warning
I’d sing out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land
Well I’ve got a hammer
And I’ve got a bell
And I’ve got a song to sing
All over this land
It’s the hammer of justice
It’s the bell of freedom
It’s the song about love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land
Jeremiah was a bullfrog
Was a good friend of mine
I never understood a single word he said
But I helped him a-drink his wine
And he always had some mighty fine wine
Singin’…
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls now
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
If I were the king of the world
Tell you what I’d do
I’d throw away the cars and the bars and the war
Make sweet love to you
Sing it now…
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
You know I love the ladies
Love to have my fun
I’m a high life flyer and a rainbow rider
A straight shootin’ son-of-a-gun
I said a straight shootin’ son-of-a-gun
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the world
Joy to you and me
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls now
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
I wanna tell you
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
Joy to the world
All the boys and girls
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea
Joy to you and me
f ever a boy stood on the moon
All the heavens would call them angels ’round
Stop the tears from troubled sky’s….from
Falling…falling…falling. If ever the river could whisper your name,
Would the choices you made still be the same?
Like a flower that dies from angry rain,
Why do we hurt ourselves?
Where is the love that lets the sunlight in to start again?
The love that sees no color lines?
Life begins with love,
So spread your wings & fly,
Guide your spirit safe & sheltered,
A thousand dreams that we can still believe.
If ever a boy stood on the moon,
Carrying all of his treasures from the stars
To a rainbow which leads to where we are.
Together we’d chase the sun.
Where is the love that lifts my brother’s voice to the skies?
The love that answers a mother’s cry?
Life begins with love,
So spread your wings & fly,
Guide your spirit safe & sheltered.
A thousand dreams that we can still believe.
A boy stood on the moon
The ancient souls can still discover
A thousand dreams that we can still believe
That we can still believe
We can still believe
We can still believe
I’ve just closed my eyes again
Climbed aboard the dream weaver train
Driver take away my worries of today
And leave tomorrow behind
Dream weaver I believe you can get me trough the night
Dream weaver I believe we can reach the morning light
Fly me high through the starry skies
Maybe to an astral plane
Cross the highways of fantasy
Help me to forget today’s pain
Dream weaver I believe you can get me trough the night
Dream weaver I believe we can reach the morning light
Though the dawn may be coming soon
There still may be some time
Fly me away to the bright side of the moon
And meet me on the other side…
Dream weaver I believe you can get me trough the night
Dream weaver I believe we can reach the morning light
Love ain’t a candle
It doesn’t burn for one night
And need the dark to shine
Love is alive
And love ain’t just a word
In every dictionary
With no where defined
Love is a man and he’s mine
(Chorus)
Love is alive
And at our breakfast table
Everyday of the week
Love is alive
And it grows everyday and night
Even in our sleep
Love is alive
And it’s made a happy woman out of me
Oh, love is alive
And here by me
Love ain’t just a mood
A distant far away dream
That needs the night to rise
Love is alive
And love ain’t just a song
Sweet words of music
To go dancin’ by
Love is a man and he’s mine
(Repeat Chorus)
Love is alive, here by me
(Repeat and fade)
The Judds Love Is Alive lyrics
I’d gladly walk across the desert
With no shoes upon my feet
To share with you the last bite of bread I had to eat
I would swim back to save you
In your sea of broken dreams
When all your hopes are sinking
Let me show you what love means
Love can build a Bridge
Between your heart and mine
Love can build a Bridge
Don’t you think it’s time?
Don’t you think it’s time?
I would whisper love so loudly
Every heart could understand
That love and only love
Can join the tribes of man
I would give my heart’s desire
So that you might see
The first step is to realize
That it all begins with you and me
Love can build a Bridge
Between your heart and mine
Love can build a Bridge
Don’t you think it’s time?
Oh, don’t you think it’s time?
When we stand together
It’s our finest hour
We can do anything, anything
Anything, anything
Keep believin’ in the power
Love can build a Bridge
Between your heart and mine
Love can build a Bridge
Don’t you think it’s time?
Don’t you think it’s time?
Hey kids turn off the tv, no i don’t want to watch the evening news so come on over here and sit down next to me, and let your momma look at you, and you and you.
your beautiful faces that i wanna keep safe as long as i can, i’m telling you right now, there’s gonna be peace in this house, there’s gonna be peace in this house. there’s gonna be some tender talkin and sweet little nothings that add up to the somethings we can do without,there’s gonna be peace in this house some belief in this house. every good thing that ever happens, happens from the inside out
i’m telling you now, there’s gonna be peace in this house
did i tell you today that i love you, you’re the reasons for everything i do and sometimes i think the only hope for this world is the love in you, and you and you.
let’s try to be patient
let’s all play nice
cause everyone’s gonna get a slice of this pie
there’s gonna be piece in this house
there’s gonna be piece in this house
gonna be some tender talkins
sweet little nothings that add up to the somethings we can do without
there’s gonna be peace in this house
some belief in this house
every good thing that ever happens
happens from the inside out
i’m telling you now, there’s gonna be peace in this house
“Why not let people differ about their answers to the great mysteries of the Universe? Let each seek one’s own way to the highest, to one’s own sense of supreme loyalty in life, one’s ideal of life. Let each philosophy, each world-view bring forth its truth and beauty to a larger perspective, that people may grow in vision, stature and dedication.”
– Algernon Black
“Happiness cannot be traveled to, owned, earned, worn or consumed. Happiness is the spiritual experience of living every minute with love, grace and gratitude.”
– Denis Waitley
“The truest greatness lies in being kind, the truest wisdom in a happy mind.”
– Ella Wheeler Wilcox
I would like to say something about balance. As we all should know, especially those of us whose spiritual path brings us close to nature, balance is vitally important to our spiritual, physical and emotional well-being. This doesn’t mean always feeling like we are balancing all of our obligations and having everything under control and happy. This means dealing with the positive and negative aspects of our lives. It is so important for people to speak out when they see someone being wronged, or when they have been wronged. Think of Martin Luther King Jr, what if he never spoke out against intolerance because he didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make people mad at him? I’m not saying we can all impact the world on the scale that he did, but even small things like telling people when you are treated unfairly at a school, or treated rudely at a local business, or overcharged at Wal-Mart can make a difference to someone. Yes, this can bring up negative emotions and issues that are hard to deal with, and it can make us look at ourselves and try to improve our own actions. This isn’t always easy to deal with, but it is necessary for us to become better people and a better society. I think that Scott is trying to help people by letting them know what they might be getting into if they join Sacred Mists. I’ve looked through all these posts several times, and he also says positive things about some of the people at Sacred Mists. And that brings me to the positives that we need to balance out the negatives. I think its very nice that people wanted to come on here and post some happy song lyrics and some motivational quotes. We all need that in our lives and those things can really inspire us and give us the energy we need to fight the negative things in our world. I do think that the people posting all the positive things went a little overboard, it was kind of like someone sticking their fingers in their ears and saying “I can’t hear you I can’t hear you”. I hope that this was not your intention and that you were only trying to cheer people up. I think we all need to try to remember that we need to deal with the negative without running away from it, and then we need to inspire ourselves with the positive, but we need to always make sure that we aren’t neglecting either one. And I’m not trying to sound like I’m the queen of balance, I’m just saying this because I have a very hard time finding that balance in my life, but I’m working on it : )
Blessings to everyone,
April
“There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.”
– George Sand
“When we feel love and kindness toward others, it not only makes others feel loved and cared for, but it helps us also to develop inner happiness and peace.”
– HH the Dalai Lama
I found your comments very enlightening, April, thank you. I read the entire thread here with great interest and I agree that it is helpful when someone posts about a bad experience they had, which serves to put other people on notice and to be on the alert.
That being said, it looks to me like the entire subject of this particular blog was to attack Sacred Mists, from the very first post by someone who did not know anyone at Sacred Mists and who had not checked it out themselves, but rather made terrible assumptions.
Because of that unfortunate beginning, some have come on here to defend Sacred Mists, and some have found their way here to continue the attacks. It would have been more balanced, and I agree with balance, if the thread had begun with a debate or a question, rather than an attack.
The attack mode (also known as “flaming” and not allowed on some websites) set the mode for this entire negative thread. It looks to me that those who posted positive notes in words and music today were actually attempting to correct the balance here.
I too appreciate Scott’s opinion and am sorry he had such a terrible experience, but in all honesty, I find the perceptions he has of an elitist college led by a madwoman a little over the top.
What I have learned here is that everyone has a unique experience, that everyone perceives those experiences through their own unique perspective, and that for me, when I make a decision about something I will gladly hear what others have to say and then I will go and check something out for myself.
Personally, I think it’s a mistake to judge others by heresay.
And with that note, I wish you all love and light.
Very well said SusanB!
I myself was a student at Sacred Mists a few years ago. My experience was a pleasant one. When I was there I was treated with kindness and love. Their program is a very good one and from what I have heard it’s continued to grow and get better all the time. The leadership Scott speaks of I found to be very caring individuals that give a great deal of themselves to teach and support and keep the place a positive one.
That was my experience. I know several students that have been there from the beginning and many that have come along over the years, some coming and going as personal life allowed. Why would they stay or go back if it’s the horrible place Scott claims it to be.
Sounds more like he didn’t have a good experience and reading over posts from the council members it sounds like he must have been involved in something, again I don’t know for sure what. But the point is have your say and then let it go.
If you have a bad experience then sure put it out here but use facts to back it up.
I think Scott could have done a better job of delivering the details then he did and I agree a lot of what he said seems very over the top. Because I never experienced any of that and speaking with friends that are still there they say they have not come across anything he has posted of wither but I will let them comment if they wish.
But I am sorry if he did have a bad experience. That’s never fun to go through.
Mine was a good one and I hope to get back there some day when time allows.
And I’m guilty of posting to show a little lightheartedness here
Love to all,
PW
I agree that Lorien seems to have just sent her cattle out to make noise and post fluff. It’s her way of negating Juvenall’s public website so people can’t see the truth about her school. I thought it might happen when she realized her threats about taking me to court wouldn’t work. But I’m actually receiving more e-mails from disgruntled Misters, ex-Misters and never-been-Misters today than ever. It reminds me of the time I called Lorien and tried to explain what an argument ad populum is and she just started going, “Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah” as loudly as she could until I stopped. And, honestly, I was laughing at her so much that it did stop me. That’s another thing she does - fills your mouth with cake until talking would cause you to choke. Probably there are some Misters who won’t understand that’s a metaphor. I’d better get ready to be sued for cake-slander :).
I think it’s going too far to call Lorien a “madwoman”. But her hospital visits for conditions related to mental illness do concern me. You don’t just shake off panic attacks without some serious introspection and hard work, and I don’t feel she can handle either of those at this time in her life. But, yes, she’s a talented woman. She’s not evil. She’s just apathetic.
SusanB, how funny that you use the word “heresay” - an alternate spelling of “heresy” - instead of “hearsay”. I think that was a mistake, but you’re on the right track.
paganwitch - I didn’t say it was horrible. If you had read my posts on this, and other, sites, you’d already be aware of that. It’s far scarier that it’s so hypnotic and sugar-coated. That sends people the message that they aren’t allowed to express their concerns. And they aren’t. I think they should know up front that they are paying for a program that is intended to inhibit their freedom of speech. The people (and I’m excluding the council and Lorien here) are wonderful, but it’s natural that - in such an atmosphere - many of them would be misguided.
Some of your quotes actually mean something - and those I love. I’d love to share some of my favorites, too.
___________________________________________________________
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
-Plato
“The face of tyranny
Is always mild at first.”
-Racine
“Female patriarchs can be just as domineering as males [...] Even now, in the patriarchal excesses of militant feminism, we see yet another swing of the pendulum, the failure to find balance.”
-Woodman and Dickson
“If [the teacher] is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.”
-Kahlil Gibran
“Do not be puffed up because of your knowledge nor overconfident because you are a learned person. Take counsel with the ignorant as well as with the wise, for the limits of proficiency cannot be reached and no person is ever fully skilled.”
-Ptah-Hotep
“Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.”
-Stanislaw J. Lee
“Leadership is doing what is right when no one is watching.”
-George Van Valkenburg
“Every time I say something they find hard to hear,
They chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear.”
-Ani DiFranco, “Not a Pretty Girl”
And, for the sake of levity…
“If you’re going to tell people the truth, you better make them laugh; otherwise they’ll kill you.”
-George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________________________________
It honors me to see that I’ve helped keep the Sacred Mists debate going. Hurray for free speech!
Blessings,
Scott
I can see you are just going to find fault with anyone that disagrees with you.
That’s sad. Not only are you trying to pick apart that school now you wish to pick apart anyone who’s opinion is different than yours.
It’s also clear that a debate isn’t what you want. It’s clear that you are not just posting to tell others of your experience.
You are out for blood.
That’s not sad that’s scary.
I wish you well for all that you are bringing on yourself.
Hugs to you and I do mean that.
PW
ummm, sorry paganwitch, but a debate does seem to be what Scott wants, since a debate does consist of picking apart someone’s arguments and trying to argue against them. Instead of saying you find his desire to argue scary, why don’t you go through his post point by point and figure out what you disagree with and why, and then post that? Then you might be able to find some kind of resolution, or you might not, but at least you might understand what he’s saying a little better. I think that its great that you want to question what Scott is saying, just don’t be afraid to do that with anyone in your life, including Sacred Mists. No one, and certainly no organization, is perfect and nice all of the time. Just entertain the idea that the leaders at Sacred Mists may have made some mistakes, and those mistakes might have hurt people. Now everyone involved can go on and learn from those mistakes and help other to learn from them, hopefully without jumping to conclusions about anyone being “out for blood”. Good luck, I hope everything continues to go well for you at Sacred Mists.
April
Ok, so I’m curious. I’ve just joined SM. I was doing some searching and found this blog through a link. I’ll just take a minute to share my thoughts from a new’ish student standpoint.
The community itself seems to have a lot of great opportunities for learning and growing. Everyone is welcoming, and a lot of help is available right at the start. There isn’t any bickering-like debate going on in the forums. I’ve been reading and reading all the old threads, so many it’s taken me weeks so far. I’ve seen where members of the leadership come in and put back on track any discussions that seem to be getting derailed into a personal place rather than focusing on the topic at hand, so to be sure that the people that are debating can continue without having to defend, rather than discuss, their own beliefs. I don’t know, maybe I’m in the minority, but I see that as something I welcome.
There are formal, coven-wide gatherings in the chat rooms where all students are invited to share their ideas, concerns, etc. with leadership and students in a forum that is heard by all. I like that because we all get to participate in the process. It’s all seemed very open and inviting to me.
At first I read this post, and thought “uhoh”… but then, I sat back and remembered that there are always going to be two sides of every coin. That the other schools and forums I’ve been to haven’t been the right places for me, some have what people call witch warring going on within them, which is why I went looking for somewhere else. This blog feels a lot like that to me, too, sorry to say.
I guess what I’m saying is that so far I’m really happy here and like it a lot. I like the group, I like the leadership, I like the support, I like the education, I like the comfortable feel that the place has. I’ve talked to a lot of the students that go to the chat rooms, probably at least 40 or 50 people so far, some of them saying they’ve been here only a couple of months and some saying they’ve been here for over 6 years and still love it. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t regret my choice to join. I don’t feel that I’m not allowed to express my opinions. In fact, I’ve done so right on the boards several times and am always met with posts that have been helpful from both leadership and students.
For the record, I wasn’t asked to post here, and honestly I’m a little afraid that I’m doing it because I don’t want to get bitten for being someone who likes SM. But I really do. If you don’t, that’s okay. Just be sure to be open and supportive of people that do, because that is where the balance is.
Thanks for listening and BB.
Troy M.
Lancaster, PA
Wow - I just found this and I’ve spent the last hour or so reading through it. Interesting because I was bored and had nothing to do. It seems that this latest was started back Aug 2, 2008 - I don’t understand why Scott has such a vendetta about a place he left some 9 months ago…
Scott posted:
…would also like to add some of my own comments about Sacred Mists as an organization. I hold first and second degrees from Sacred Mists, I have led eight rituals there, I have facilitated dozens of chats and classes there (as well as two major boards for well over a year).
So you were a member there for over two years…????? You enjoyed it enough to spend two years of your life there? So the problem really is that you are mad at someone and are choosing to…what exactly are you trying to accomplish???? You must have some goal in mind????
Scott Posted:
….As for the school, it’s quite a good program…….. people can also augment the lessons with quite a decent variety of activities. Having access to that community is incredible.
Scott Posted.
….More than this, the people at Sacred Mists (on the whole) are amazing. The student council is made up on talented, knowledgeable and caring people with only a couple of exceptions. And the people taking their first and second degrees also tend to be wonderful. I still have friends from the Mists for whom I care deeply.
Then it appears that that as time goes on things get more bizarre and accusations continue…Why?
I am appalled at the actions of a Rev???? This is not helping the pagan community at all..what a shame.
okay still bored and went and checked out the website…
I was reading testimonials and came across this…
Not every program out there is credible; I took a long time searching for a program I could be happy with, and I took a very skeptical view. Nonetheless, I’ve found this to be a caring, challenging and inspirational program. Sacred Mists has greatly helped me along my path . I have been unable, thus far, to find other pagans in my community. For me, Sacred Mists provides an excellent spiritual support structure. Whatever path you choose, may it bless you.
~ Vanamee / Scott Hill
This appears to be an excellent program - I’m not seeing any red flags - in fact I’m thinking about signing up and trying it out. As for Scott - I’m starting to find you questionable..
Troy and bored, you bring up good points. I’m a fairly intelligent person, but look how fooled I was. Even though Sacred Mists doesn’t hold permission to use that endorsement quote, I’m glad you found it. And, hey, they’re still using several other things I wrote without permission - I just mention that for the edification of the artists at the Mists. I had no idea at that time what Lorien Carrillo was like - in fact, she’d never bothered to talk with me despite my requesting that she do so.
THAT’s how easy it is to get fooled - and that’s why I keep trying to post in public forums about my experience whenever people e-mail me and ask me to.
Here are some of the questions I never asked when I was doing my “research” (which was obviously flawed).
What is Lady Raven’s real name? Why do I have to get it from the BBB because she won’t tell me? Does an honest leader hide behind a pseudonym - especially when it’s a “magickal name” that she uses far more often for business than ritual?
How much money does Lorien Carrillo (that’s “Lady Raven”) make each year? Why can’t we students see a financial report for the school or for her personally? Do good leaders hide - or obfuscate - their financial information?
Why has the school had so many problems with men? Why have all but a handful of men left the school?
Did you know about Carrillo’s mental health problems and how they’ve interrupted the coven in the past?
Why does Ms. Carrillo ask for special favors for council members? For instance, why did she ask for money for the already wealthy (then called) Allysse Firebear, buy her a weekend at the spa, then pocket the large remainder of donations for purposes she wouldn’t tell the school about?
Where does Carrillo get her qualifications? Why can’t she provide details or contact information from the training she so reluctantly claims?
Why is Ms. Carrillo so closed-mouthed about her highly-paid work at Wells Fargo, Microsoft Business Solutions and other large, unethical corporations?
Why are we told in the very first lesson that we should support the SM Shoppe and encourage others to support it? Doesn’t this constitute economic pressure?
Why did Carrillo tell me that sexual violence is ok but poly-amory is sick?
Why does Carrillo hate self-initiates so much? Doesn’t this include many people at her own “school”?
Why does Carrillo sponsor the Gypsies - an organization that is obviously misrepresenting the Romany? Isn’t this a racist practice?
Why is intelligence frowned upon at Sacred Mists? Why are people told they have to “dumb themselves down” to fit in?
Why is Sacred Mists run as a sorority - rather than a coven - is run? Have you noticed how sororities are all hugs and cuddles one moment and how reckless and hateful the next? Wouldn’t you rather hear from people who are honest with you, even if they don’t always tell you everything is sunshine and faeries?
Are you aware of the censorship process at Sacred Mists? Did you know that posts have been changed to misrepresent people in the past? Did you know that your words can be completely obliterated from a thread without even a notation that a post was once located there?
Did you know that leadership, SMPDA, Gypsies, etc. all talk about how to censor what they tell the “underlings”? Are you further aware that some services we are expected to render for free to those outside the “college” (like Lorien’s friend Tia)?
Have you heard Lorien’s vicious gossip about her “underlings” - and even people on student council?
Are you aware that I received a number of magical threats from council members (and ONLY from council members) when I left the Mists?
Did you know Sacred Mists employs a secret member (Liesel Jameson) who has leaked confidential information in this very thread?
Yes, I used to be moonstruck myself - and they played me like a fiddle. It’s so easy to get suckered in when you are just desperately looking for a faith community in which to practice. And then, especially if you’re poor like me, you feel you have to keep up the investment even when you start to doubt. I don’t want that to happen to others.
Yes, Troy, you may post here without being afraid. Unlike the SM student council, I won’t send any magic to bind or burn you (and that’s not a guess, but an admission in one of the council member’s threatening letters to me). That’s part of freedom of speech. I’m so proud of you for saying what you’ve said - but look how my former words of endorsement have been used against me. Be careful what words Carrillo and the council may steal from you for their own purposes.
And, for Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone - have YOU asked these important questions or were you just bedazzled by the high fees Carrillo earns for you? Don’t you think you have a responsibility to work only with ethical organizations?
Blessings,
Scott
The core lesson of the law of attraction is about feeling good. When you have good vibes, you generate a positive state of reality around you. The fundamental positive feelings are peace and joy. When you experience these feelings, all other things that your heart desires will be added to you. Peace and joy is the whole Kingdom of God/Goddess. People make the mistake of losing peace and joy when they chase external things. The most important thing of all in creating your reality is to remain in a state of peace.
The emotion of joy and peace attracts more conditions of joy and peace. Anytime you place yourself in a state of joy and peace for a prolonged period of time, you will see more and more good things showing up in your life. Some people find it hard to remain in a prolonged state of joy and peace because of the many problems that they have. But the inner world always creates the outer world, and so the only way to shift external situations is to make the shift within. Maintain a state of peace and joy for awhile.
As within, so without. When you are feeling peace and joy within, you will see reality corresponding on the outside in real time. That’s because all reality is consciousness and both inner and outer world are one. The state of consciousness you are in is the exact reality you are experiencing in the moment. The collective universe has many different personal universes running at different frequencies each that all merge into a common plane of existence. Your personal frequency creates your personal universe.
There are people who try using the law of attraction to manifest what they want, and then when they fail to do so, they think that the law of attraction doesn’t work. But the truth is that the law of attraction always works, and they do not realize that they are using it to create opposing realities that cancel each other out. They have an intention to manifest something, but at the same time they have a second intention that is manifesting the opposite of their first intention. Conflicting intentions is the problem here.
You may have a desire about something that you want to manifest, but at the same time you have another desire that you are already experiencing. If you were to manifest the new desire, you would not be able to continue experiencing what you already have. You are still holding on to your current desire while trying to intend a new one, and it doesn’t work because the two conditions cannot exist together at the same time. That is why you have to be clear of what you intend and the conditions with it.
Your intention is not just what you desire, but also what you focus on. You may set an intention to achieve abundance, happiness and fulfillment. You think a lot about these things but then you also think a lot on situations to do with scarcity, the things that you are unhappy about and things that you are not satisfied with. You feel good, grateful and happy for awhile and then you feel negative. You worry, doubt and fear. You’re at the same time pulling your desire towards you and pushing it away from you.
It is very important to first note that to even want peace or wish for peace sends a powerful prayer to the universe. Peace is more than just a kind notion - it is a powerful action. The word itself will induce a sense of security and calm. Therefore, to merely think of peace or speak the word aloud or to yourself silently - begins to create the sense of peace you are looking for.
Peace brings about love and harmony. These three principals work in conjunction with one another to create a very important trinity or triangle. The triangle is a very powerful symbol and works wonders. So Peace, Love and Harmony are all intersected principals or “powers” working together. You cannot have peace without first having love and with love and peace comes harmony. So when you meditate on peace, love and harmony, you are really bringing in the divine aspects of the universe. These three principals will transform all matter and situations.
When you focus on peace you will deliver peace to not only yourself but to your immediate circle and the world as well. You will find that matters will flow more smoothly, situations will be easier, people will be kinder. Through peace you will find yourself closer to One, closer to your higher self. Peace elevates all emotions to the higher realms. With Peace All is Well. Acceptance is a very nice outcome of peace. For peace transforms judgment and criticism into love, light -which brings about acceptance.
To help bring peace into your life, try these simple exercises the next time you face a situation that is harsh or sharp or even explosive - visualize a soft light that permeates the entire situation and anyone involved. Each day visualize your home or office filled with the soft light. If you experience a lot of phone calls - imagine your phone has a soft glow of light around it and actually has a “peace filter” on the receiver. So all callers are instantly transformed into their most peaceful representations. Embrace your own peaceful side. Anytime you feel angry, judgmental or critical - remember to let peace wash over you. Extend the proverbial olive branch instead of your negative thoughts, actions or words. Find items of peace to display in your home, office and car. You may even find it powerful to imagine a white dove perched on your shoulder or the shoulder of someone who is exhibiting anger, criticism and judgment.
Please remember that peace is not just a thought - it is indeed a powerful action that can bring about great transformation. Use peace to help you through our daily lives and you will be helping the world become a better place along the way.
GROW THROUGH JOY
Greetings from Orin and DaBen
Call your soul to you right now. All you need to do is think of it, and invite it to join you. Some people imagine their soul as an enormous light, surrounding and penetrating their physical body like a sphere of light all around them. However you picture or sense your soul is fine.
As you blend with your soul, let it sound a note of joy that reverberates throughout every cell of your body. Permit this new vibration of joy to stimulate and activate your DNA, the cellular code of your body. Allow it to open you to a new level of joy, your soul’s joy. You need not hear it, sense it, or feel it for your soul’s note of joy to be sounded and to have an effect.
Sound your soul’s note of joy often.
Sense how beautiful and perfect you are as a soul; how full of joy and love. The world of the soul does not know sorrow or pain. It knows only love, joy, and bliss. You can bring your soul’s joy into your daily life. You can stop struggling. You can trust that the universe is perfect and that it is always working for you. Joy comes when you understand that everything that happens in your life is brought to you by your soul and Higher Self to assist you in growing stronger and in evolving. Joy comes when you decide to grow through joy and to bring joy into your life.
Your attitude determines how you experience the world. It is the way you react to life. An attitude that creates joy is one in which you interpret what happens to you through the filter of joy. Your attitude is expressed in the words you use when you talk to yourself. Perhaps you have just succeeded in achieving a goal you have wanted to accomplish. A joyful attitude says, “Congratulations, job well done.”
If your joyful self speaks words of praise it helps you bring more of the same to yourself. Attitudes are magnetic and every moment you spend in joy magnetizes another moment of joy. Joyful, light emotions are always more powerful in their ability to create than negative emotions. Acknowledge the joy you already have in your life, and you will feel it even more often.
Joy is a feeling in the present moment,
not something you will have in the future.
What brings joy into your life? Do you know? Are you aware of that which makes you happy? Or are you so busy fulfilling your daily obligations that you put off to some future time those things that make you feel good? Joy is a feeling in the present moment, not something you will have in the future. Are you holding an image of what life will be like some day when you are happy, but not feeling that sense of well-being right now?
You may have many reasons why you cannot change your life right now and be happy. If you do not begin to create reasons why you can, change will always be a future thought, and you will not be on the path of joy. Take a moment to pause, go within, and decide if you want more joy in your life. Do you intend to have it?
To have more joy in your life, you may need to open to receive. Your soul has so many gifts for you. All you need to do is open to receive those gifts. You can begin to imagine joy, peace, and harmony as your birthright. Focus, clarity, and love are available for the asking. Request joy from your soul, and it will send it to you. Pause right now, ask your soul to send you joy, and let joy pour into your being.
Know that the universe
is always working for you.
You can know the joy and perfection of your being. Believe that the universe is perfect and is always working for you. Recognize that everything that is happening in your life is for your higher good, even if you cannot understand why.
Let go of being a victim, and know that everything that is happening is something you have drawn to yourself to help you become stronger, more whole, and closer to your soul. Stop blaming others or the universe. Instead, affirm that you are the creator of your life, and that you can create any life you want for yourself.
Every time you think of something that makes you feel sorry for yourself, or makes you hold a negative picture of yourself, stop! See what good you created from that experience. It may be that you learned so much that you never again brought that kind of experience into your life. It may be that because of that situation, you changed your path. It may have helped you develop new qualities and personality traits. You may have served and assisted others.
Find something good in every situation. Rather than focus on what is wrong in your life, focus on what is going well for you. Look at what you are learning from an event, how it is making you stronger, and the gifts it is bringing you. Take a situation you dislike and say, “In some way I don’t yet perceive, this situation will give me many wonderful opportunities to grow and bring me many blessings.” As you say this, you create it as so.
Listen to the quiet, reassuring voice of your soul. It is that still, quiet voice of peace, that reassuring voice that tells you everything will be all right, and that the universe is working for you.
Your soul loves and accepts you,
it sees the beauty and perfection of your being.
Another way to know the joy of your soul is to love and accept yourself, recognizing the beauty and perfection of your being just as you are right now. You do not need to change to be lovable. Sense your soul’s love for you. There is nothing you could do that your soul would not love, for your soul knows only love. It loves you just as you are, with no exceptions!
Think of everyone as a crystal, unique and beautiful in his or her own way. There is no crystal that is not beautiful, that does not reflect light. In addition, imagine that you as a crystal are becoming more beautiful and perfect at every moment, with more light and all the colors of the rainbow pouring through you.
Forgive yourself for anything you have done in the past that you do not feel good about. No matter what your past was like, view everything that happened to you as something created by your soul to assist you in evolving. Change your negative memories into positive understanding. As you do, you release the pain and open to your path of joy.
Believe that the future holds joy and promise.
Let go of any fears or beliefs that the future will be worse than the present. There is a mass thoughtform that the future will be worse than the present, and that change is bad. It leads to a need to hang on to what you have, and brings pain rather than joy. Embrace the new, and believe that the future holds joy and promise.
Open up to the idea that you will be wiser, stronger, and more powerful tomorrow and that whatever you create will be even better than what you now have. Keep a picture in your mind that the future is positive and that it will be better than anything you have ever known.
You can have more joy by giving yourself freedom. Freedom is an inner feeling. It is the ability to choose what you want. It is the knowledge that you are the captain of the ship. Freedom is knowing that you own your own life, that you are the one in charge. Freedom is essential for joy, for anywhere you feel trapped you cannot experience joy.
You can learn to create joy in your life by feeling inner peace. Each time when you choose to feel good about yourself, even when someone is criticizing you, putting you down, or acting in a way that you used to respond to with pain, you are choosing joy. Each time you do you create freedom in your life. You are free from having to have other people act in certain ways for you to be happy.
Appreciate all that you have. Focus on what is working in your life and it will increase. You have so much to be grateful for. You have the ability to create anything you want; the only limits are those you create for yourself. Wake up in the morning and decide you will experience joy today. Your joyful presence assists others to complete their daily responsibilities with more joy and lifts everyone around you higher.
Laugh and play.
Put a smile in your heart.
Last but not least, don’t take yourself so seriously. Laugh and play. It is not the end of the world if something does not go right. The quality of humor is perhaps one of the greatest doorways to joy and self-love. Laugh, smile at others, and put a smile in your heart.
Today affirm that the universe is perfect. Believe that the universe is working for you and that everything is happening for your good. Notice if you are struggling or efforting, and stop! Affirm that you want to grow through joy, and sound your soul’s note of joy. Believe that you can live a joyful, wonderful life, and start right now to do so. Decide what is next for you to do that would bring you joy. Then, do it!
Light Play: Knowing Joy-Recognizing the Good in Every Situation
To experience joy is to know that the universe is friendly, and that it is always working for and with you. Think of a current situation you do not like in your life, and recognize the good in it by doing the following:
1. Believe that you have created this situation to learn from, even if it seems that you have nothing to do with its creation.
2. Affirm that the universe is perfect, and that it is always working for you.
3. Sound your soul’s note of joy, and decide that you will grow with joy rather than through struggle or pain in this area.
4. Say to yourself, “This situation is offering me many blessings and opportunities to grow stronger and more whole within.”
5. Think of at least one soul quality (patience, love, forgiveness, humility, compassion, and so on) that you are more able to express since you drew this situation to you.
6. Send your love and forgiveness to anyone involved.
7. Love and forgive yourself for having created this.
8. Make a picture that you will experience the peace, joy, and serenity of your soul in this area, no matter how the situation evolves or changes.
9. See yourself gaining these soul qualities and learning your lessons through joy in the future.
Light Play: Creating Joy-Focusing on the Positive
You can grow through joy by appreciating and focusing on all the good things you have in your life. Answer these:
1. I appreciate these wonderful qualities in myself:
2. List at least three things you appreciate about your life, that you can acknowledge that you have created.
3. Write down at least three things in your life that are going well, that you feel good about.
4. Acknowledge several good things about yourself—your body, emotions, mind— that you appreciate.
5. Think of a friend or loved one. Acknowledge several good qualities or aspects of this person that you like and appreciate. Mention these to this person the next time you see him or her.
6. Reflect on an important relationship. Think of or list at least two aspects of your relationship that are working well for you.
7. Notice how good you feel as you appreciate and acknowledge all the good in your life. As you do, you are sounding your soul’s note of joy, adding more joy to your life and to the world.
13 Principles of Wiccan Belief
In seeking to be inclusive, we do not wish to open ourselves to the destruction of our group by those on self-serving power trips, or to philosophies and practices contradictory to these principles. In seeking to exclude those whose ways are contradictory to ours, we do not want to deny participation with us to any who are sincerely interested in our knowledge and beliefs, regardless of race, color, sex, age, national or cultural origins or sexual preference. Principles of the Wiccan Belief:
We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal Quarters and Cross Quarters.
We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with Nature, in ecological balance offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept.
We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary it is sometimes called “supernatural”, but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.
We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity-as masculine and feminine-and that this same Creative Power lies in all people, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and feminine. We value neither (gender) above the other, knowing each to be supportive to the other. We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magickal practice and religious worship.
We recognize both outer worlds and inner, of psychological, worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconscious, Inner Planes, etc.-and we see in the inter-action of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomena and magickal exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.
We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.
We see religion, magick and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it- a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft- the Wiccan Way.
Calling oneself “Witch” does not make a Witch-but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations. A Witch seeks to control the forces within her/himself that make life possible in order to live wisely and well without harm to other and in harmony with Nature.
We believe in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness giving meaning to the Universe we know and our personal role within it.
Our only animosity towards Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have clamed to be “the only way” and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.
As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future.
We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as “Satan” or “the Devil”, as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another.
We believe that we should seek within Nature that which is contributory to our health and well-being.
I’m forced to play devil’s advocate. But I’ve just got to say it.
This isn’t the Mists. What you’re seeing here - empty people posting mindless platitudes so Carrillo won’t have to answer tough questions - isn’t at the heart of the Mists. The average person there is smarter and more aware than what you are seeing. It’s only a small handful that jump through Carrillo’s hoops with such little thought. Most are just like I used to be in the quote above - lost and wanting desperately to believe. But most are still wonderful, caring people who DO know how to question.
I’m sorry, Juvenall, that these people are cluttering up your site just to hide my questions.
Blessings,
Scott
why should anyone wish to debate you?
anytime anyone posts here you find fault with them or call them names. That is not debating the facts. I have not seen any facts here. I see assumptions.
Anyone that posts saying they have had good experiences with Sacred Mists you immediately assume is a student council member or cattle as you refer to them, or that they are being made to post here by Lady Raven.
Is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe some people like it there and have a knowledgeable opinion of a place they are a student of?
Anyone that posts about the school in a positive light is immediately see by you as ‘not informed’ or cattle (quoting you) or empty people (quoting you), jumping through hoops (quoting you), misguided (quoting you), brainwashed (quoting you),
Reading what you say here about others that don’t agree with you leaves me thinking nobody is free to come here and state their opinion without being called names or belittled. If they don’t use proper grammar according to you that’s even brought into the mix.
quote: “SusanB, how funny that you use the word “heresay” - an alternate spelling of “heresy” - instead of “hearsay”. I think that was a mistake, but you’re on the right track.”
did you really feel it was needed to go into this?
does it make you feel superior in some way?
Nothing like trying to share an opinion then come back to find you’ve been downgraded to someone not worthy of an opinion.
Do I immediately assume April or Amused or anyone posting in your favor are your family members or friends or you posting under another name?
No I don’t. So why can’t you not assume people that post here are friends, family or people being controlled by Lady Raven?
Also why can’t you accept that some people here are not interested in debating you. Does it say ‘debate’ at the start of this blog?
Some just want to share an opinion.
There are questions we could ask you as well.
Do you have proof that all student council members are all wealthy people?
Do you know for fact that the retreat was paid for by Sacred Mists?
Do you have proof that council is paid for what they do? Other than those that have stated they are employed by this business.
Quoting you: This is a website where a member of SM leadership describes the posh retreat student council members are treated to. It’s just another reason to eschew this jetsetting crowd who play at being goddesses
Who said they are ‘treated’ to this?
There you go assuming they are jet setters. Any proof that they are?
Do you know for a fact that they think of themselves as goddesses?
I read the blog entry you linked. To me it sounded like people that are friends and work together got together in person. Nothing was said about jetsetting or paid for by the school.
Quote from you: So why do they keep refusing to speak in public forums where everyone is allowed to be heard?
Maybe because of what I said above about how you treat anyone that posts. Maybe because you don’t listen to them when they do post.
Maybe because no matter what they say you will find fault with it.
Maybe because if they do post here you won’t believe it is actually them or think it’s just going to continue giving you an energy feed.
Maybe they have moved on.
Maybe they are busy within the school where their attention and energy is needed and wanted and appreciated.
Who knows?
I don’t, you don’t. Don’t assume you do.
to quote you: “I’m glad to say I’ve been able to move on. I’ve had some reports of lies being spread about me at Sacred Mists (even within the past couple of months), but I am happy to say I’ve reached the point where I can just shrug it off. The people who really know me have shown that they know when the truth isn’t being told. ”
have you moved on?
who’s truth?
yours?
Others have asked you about statements you have made saying you have moved on. Clearly you haven’t and the only way you indirectly answer their questions is to say *others* ask you to post or have emailed you about this…why not keep it to email then?
Where are these others?
Why can’t they make up names and post here to protect themselves from the so called bad asses employed (say you) by Lady Raven.
Who appointed you as the person in charge of protecting anyone considering joining this school?
If it’s a warning to others to check it out before joining then you’ve done that. Because you keep coming up with more and more and more it leaves me to believe there is more to it than a simple friendly warning.
You claimed to be an ordained pagan minister. Have proof you care to share?
You seem to ask a lot of questions and want proof of Lady Raven’s status and education.
Then you go on to accuse Gavin Bone and Janet Farrar of working with a criminal organization. Has Sacred Mists been charged legally with something criminal?
You can’t just go around dropping statements like that without proof to back it up.
Quote: “Gavin Bone and Janet Farrar: Knowing, as you must, that Sacred Mists is a criminal organization”
Quote: “Lorien Carillo’s cult of personality”
so now she’s running a cult?
to quote you again: “I’m sorry, Juvenall, that these people are cluttering up your site just to hide my questions.”
again you speak about anyone else’s postings as simply ‘cluttering’.
Truthfully after all these posts both here and other places around the net and your refusal to just let it go after putting your warnings out there. It’s pretty obvious to me at least that the head of the school isn’t going to reply to you here or elsewhere on the internet.
If you have all this evidence of threats and much more that you’ve stated in blogs around the net why don’t you file a suit against them and have your day in court?
Leaves me to believe you have nothing to file a suit with and this is sounding more like a smear campaign than anything else.
You in my opinion, and I am just as entitled to have one as you, are being rude and hurtful to some others here.
If all of this is your opinion then clearly state that.
If it’s fact then back it up.
Slanderous statements, hurtful statements, name calling and accusations should have no place in this.
I feel for the student that posted last night fearing as they said Quote: “For the record, I wasn’t asked to post here, and honestly I’m a little afraid that I’m doing it because I don’t want to get bitten for being someone who likes SM”
I know how they feel. After I post I don’t wish to come back at some point down the road to see just how much you belittle me. It’s hurtful.
And April, as I stated I am not a student of Sacred Mists at this time and have not been for some time.
This has been an interesting read ! I think its great that everyone can share their opinions, but some people are getting awfully argumentative and defensive. It sounds like Scott was very hurt by his experiences, and of course all we have to go on in his word. But something happened at Sacred Mists that upset him, which is unfortunate, and I hope that he will be able to move on to better experiences. A lot of people at Sacred mists or who have been there are very defensive about him criticizing their coven leader. But this is a place to share opinions so why not just let him and then post your own opinion and show examples of good experiences at the school, instead of saying to Scott, how dare you criticize our leader and our school, and telling him that he is just mean and angry for saying bad things about Lorien. And if everyone keeps writing stuff asking Scott questions of course he’s going to keep responding to you, and then you tell him you don’t want a debate. I just don’t get it. Personally, I want to know people’s opinions, no matter how nice or harsh they might be, and then I can go and decide for myself how I feel about it. Just let people share their opinions without telling them they are wrong for stating their minds. I don’t know Scott, and I don’t know Sacred Mists (you can believe it or now, it doesn’t really matter), so I’m not on anyone’s “side” I just think that we need to be more tolerant with each other.
Personally I think there is a big difference between “sharing opinions” and attacking and smearing someone. That’s just me. I agree that we should be more tolerant of each other. That of course goes for both sides of a disagreement. Many sites do not allow this kind of bashing, which I mentioned before is called “flaming” in internet language. It is considered rude and inappropriate. Surely there are ways to express opinions without personal attacks. I don’t find it unusual that some people have jumped to Lorien’s defense at all. If someone attacked someone you care about, would you keep silent?
Of course I would defend my friends. But whoever was criticizing them would certainly be entitled to continue to do so. I don’t have any problem with people defending Lorien, its great that they want to speak out about it. One of the things I had a problem with was people saying that Scott was “flaming”. I have just reviewed several of these posts, and there are plenty of people (some who say they are from Sacred Mists) who make equally personal attacks against Scott. I do think that everyone here needs to step back and say how can we fix this situation? The people at Sacred mists shouldn’t be afraid to say, maybe we have some problems, and maybe some of our former students could give us input about making our college better. And if they didn’t think their input was any good they could ignore it and go on. And maybe the former students need to say what they have to say, and then drop it and stop worrying about something they may not be able to change. I think there is anger and frustration on both sides, and it may have gotten to the point now where if no one wants to listen to each other, and I mean really listen and consider other opinions, then they need to just discontinue the whole argument and agree that they aren’t going to get along so they should probably just avoid each other. Its unfortunate that the 2 sides don’t want to work together, but sometimes thats how it is. Anyway, if Lorien thought she was being bashed so badly, I think she’s probably a strong enough lady to say to the “bashers” that she would appreciate a nicer way of expressing their experiences with her. I think basically what I ended up saying was mostly that yes, in large part I agree with you SusanB that both sides should be tolerant. And I can see why people have jumped to the defense of both sides of the argument, which all just goes back to the whole idea that we are all more alike than we are different, and lets all not give up on finding some common ground to stand on. And with that, unless anyone specifically has questions for me, which I would be happy to answer in an appropriate manner : ), I probably won’t post here again because I think I’ve said everything that I need to say about this. Blessings to everyone who has posted here, and I hope something can be worked out to make everyone a little more content,
- FairyGaia
FairyGaia I do agree that it looks like Scott has been hurt. That is truly unfortunate and as I said above I am sorry if that happened.
The truth is that there are two sides to every story and somewhere in there is the truth.
I’ve stated what I have experienced at that school and yes I do plan on going back there some day. I’m not saying that nothing happened between Scott and Sacred Mists.
I would perhaps have a clearer understanding if he would have posted a clear explanation but he didn’t do that. He said a lot of things that are hard to believe if you have attended this school actively and had experience with the leadership he speaks so unkindly of.
Again I get that something happened. That’s obvious because of what’s been said here but I also have gone back to read the statements that the leadership of the Mists has posted here. Read over what everyone has to say here a few times and in there lies the real truth I imagine.
If we had a mediator here they would go through this thread and dissect it into parts and then find arguments on both sides, place them side by side so it’s easier to see what that truth might be.
I don’t have that kind of time LOL
But I have read things over, gone back and read comments again about some issues so I can see the clearer picture.
Perhaps if this discussion had not gone downhill then the people from Sacred Mists would have offered up more information but why would they attempt to defend themselves when they were met with cruel and rude remarks that were not called for.
It’s very hard to get the facts across when someone or someone’s are being ignorant and argumentative.
I have dealt with and conversed with leadership from Sacred Mists back when I was a student there. I did ask some hard questions when I was there. Discussions are allowed to take place at the school. Very much so but if it starts to get out of hand and students are being hurt I know that leadership steps in to defuse the situation. They speak with the students involved and try to work things out. The try very hard to help them grow and learn from the situations and most times it’s effective.
Sometimes a student just takes things too far or a student seems to be involved in multiple incidents again and again. Did that happen here?
I don’t know and I won’t assume.
What I know of Sacred Mists is that it is a spiritual community that supports you and helps you to grow. I’ve seen for myself while I was there that even when a student is difficult and acts out that they try to work through things and they do listen to both sides.
The path we follow can be shared but ultimately it is our path. We need to each dig deep to find the enlightenment we each seek.
I was there when a student was attacking another student, lines where drawn by other students and through the whole process leadership did their utmost to help anyone involved and yes a post or two was removed from the boards but it’s because it was causing hurt and upset.
That’s what moderators are tasked with. Making sure that people can have their say but in such a way that does not offend or cause hurt to others.
If you wish to call it fluffy then so be it. I call it having a safe place.
When I was there they didn’t allow bashing. Good for them. This path has no place for it.
Let’s face it in our faith there are lesson to be learned at every turn. When you refuse to learn from those lessons they come back at you again and again until you do.
I hope that lessons are being learned by both parties in this.
In closing I wish to say that we will never know what truly happened between Scott and Sacred Mists. You can read back through this many times and draw your own conclusions but take away from it what you will.
No school is right for everyone or there would only be one school we would all attend.
We can argue back and forth for …well it’s been since January 8, 2006 on this blog alone LOL
If you are looking at any school…check into it. Contact the person in charge, ask questions, do your homework.
If that is what Scott was wanting to express then that is wonderful advice and should be posted to help others. The rest of it is heresay, heresy, hearsay or somebody else said but has not proved.
Peace and enlightenment to all!
PW
You know, I acknowledge that people have the right to belittle me because of my intelligence, but it hurts. My wife and I are gifted, so that’s an automatic mark against us. Our son is also gifted, and I often have to watch as he’s admonished to be silent. Why does our society automatically see gifted persons as seditious or heretical? Don’t we have the right to be intelligent? If we’d let them, wouldn’t gifted people enhance our society? But no - again and again we’re told that we should give in to the tyranny of the majority. We’re told we should treat thoughts and words as if they were weapons. Than we start to think we have to censor what intelligent people say so that we can feel “safe”. Is being kept from intelligent opinions really a form of safety or is it just hiding our heads in the sand? Wouldn’t our world be a better place if we used words instead of weapons? And so our words are censored and we are seen as second-class citizens with dangerous potentials. It really hurts me to see it when people are told to keep their lights from shining. Don’t we have the right to shine?
Blessings,
Scott
holy fog
by Scott Hill (copyright May 2009)
Here I was.
Like the kid who really believes
in his little orphan annie ring.
Knowing some of the rules
would have to be suspended.
I hadn’t consciously acknowledged
my legendary lack of tact.
There I was.
And I started playing the crusader to that
founder/princess/sorority sister
Arch-Lady in the sky we all paid unconscious homage to
“If only… her” they scrawled in awe in diaries
while she bit her fingernails in the shadows.
She was priestess of the pursestrings
and more, where more meant little.
I could climb those ranks, yes,
but no one saw that my feet - if nothing else -
were planted in soil, not on rungs.
I wrote, “In this circle I am safe”.
I should have known, but didn’t know,
I was eating a pomegranate seed.
I believed it, yes, oh yes, and it’s true,
but a truth in shadow that
I will never know the same way twice.
My mother’s favorite weapon, charity
was bobbing in the cauldron, wasn’t it?
And the council of fluff was chanting
let.it.go while drinking fairy ale
and impersonating the Romany on six figures
and saying, “It was our spell that did it,
yeah girl, I patriarched his ass!”
A spell like a cunningly hidden wardrobe
with a pretty obvious knob.
But nothing holy ever came of it.
In her last life, this princess
was administrator to the inquisition -
a recorder of names as curses
who now curses me with my name.
And now there is something less of me
but a better less
because Tyr took me out of the temple
where the comeliest fairy gets the shiniest whip
and gave me into the care of Odin
where a new student at the fog
earned my respect and my worry with a question.
If he wants so much to believe,
why can’t I just let him believe?
But how can you believe in garlands
that lie dead upon the earth?
ButterflyDissected, you know a name.
A key that only someone not you
would turn. Be not tempted.
You’ve seen where I worship
from over the hills.
You’ve been told it has a price,
but it has none.
WaveDancer, you broke a trust,
but earned a greater trust
that maybe we’ll know
in future lives. Be not shy.
Don’t just let the waves wash over you when there are wolves nearby.
You’ve seen the gods I worship
from your place by the chalkboard.
LoathLorien, you’ll never be at rest
and I wanted you to go for your sake.
Now I want you to stay most of all
because you may sometimes know peace,
but yours is not a life lived in peace. Be not at peace.
You’ve seen my artistry, such as it is:
You know those ladies need some Loki.
Here I am
where I probably knew I’d be
and they want a crusade against the infidel
and you could see me cry if
too many bloody paintbrushes hadn’t crossed my cheek.
I’m proud of crying, proud of being poor enough
to have to eat ramen noodles.
And waves keep creeping forward in every strophe
so that I always wash up far downstream
I have a father and a mother,
true ones, oh so much in my life,
lovers who strain my breath
with feverish refining fire.
You insist let.it.go
and you have my e-mail and my list of questions.
One of my ribs is your tradition without your founder
and something holy did come of that.
I’m here, telling you take.it.up
From the depths of my heart and spirit this is for you Scott. I mean each line for the highest good and as a blessing to you.
Yes you have been hurt, so have others. From this day forward, let the healing begin.
I chose 5 stones noted in () before each blessing
(Tree Agate) May you find the bounty of the Earth, be blessed
(Rose Quartz) May your life be filled with love and laughter, be blessed
(Tiger’s Eye) May your home and family be safe and protected, be blessed
(Amethyst) May your spirit shine and be full, be blessed
(Clear Quartz) May you find peace and joy, be blessed
Blessed Be!
Well, Sacred Mists proved to me today that they don’t want anyone to let.it.go.
I wrote yesterday to request that they remove my endorsement from their site (as I asked them to do last summer).
I wrote:
Hello Ma’am,
It has recently come to my attention that you are using my words to promote your business without my permission. Please remove my endorsement (and any other materials with the exception of rituals that I have given you permission to use) from your website as per my request when I left the Mists. I appreciate that you are busy, so I will allow you a week’s time in which to do so. Once these words are removed, I will no longer have any reason to post about my experiences at the Mists in public forums because the Mists will no longer be actively using my statement for monetary gain.
Sincerely,
Rev. Scott Hill, sometimes known as Vanamee
They responded:
Good Friday to you Rev. Hill,
We are happy to accept your offer as outlined in your email dated May 14, 2009, wherein
you request that we remove your testimonial from our website and when done, you will
cease to post regarding your experiences at Sacred Mists College.
We ask, that as part of this agreement, you post a final response to the threads in
question, consisting of the fact that you have been in contact with Sacred Mists and
have come to a satisfactory conclusion in your association with Sacred Mists. No
details are needed or expected.
If you agree with our request, please reply with your acceptance back to me and the
testimonial will be removed within 24 hours of your agreement.
We truly regret your unsatisfactory experience with Sacred Mists and accept
responsibility for any mistakes that we made. We wish you and your family brightest
blessings and success in your future endeavors and are looking forward to hearing back
from you.
It is our hope that we are all able to move on from here with peace and light in our
hearts.
May the Goddess bless you,
Amethyst Lilyth M.
“Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in
it. Begin now.” - Goethe
So I responded:
Hello Ma’am,
I’m sorry. I think you misunderstood my e-mail. I’m asking you to do something ethical for the sake of ethics. I’m also asking you to do it because it’s the legal action to take in regard to endorsements. I’m not making an agreement with you in order that you may prevent damage to your corporation’s reputation. Indeed, I cannot enter into an agreement with you because 1) you may still be using my materials on the private portion of your website without my permission just as you’re using them on the public portion of your site, 2) I cannot believe in any agreement made by a business whose members have libeled me in the past because the agreement may not be honored and 3) I cannot enter into an agreement with someone who offers a business pseudonym in place of a legal name.
I’m sorry that you continue to refuse to comply with my request, as I would love to put this situation to rest. Although I know your business has the money and influence to escape many legal repercussions, I will have to try recourse through government agencies.
Thank You for Your Time,
S.H.
“People are still trading crime for crime.”
-Ani DiFranco
Now, the FTC says this about endorsements:
“endorsements must also reflect the honest opinions, findings, beliefs, or experience of the endorser.”
and
“Additionally,” states the agency, “the advertiser may continue to run the advertisement only so long as he has good reason to believe that the endorser remains a bona fide user of the product.”
In other words, the “leaders” at Sacred Mists want to force me to give up my legal right to post my opinions in public forums and offer a bogus statement of reconciliation just so they’ll do what ethics and the law require them to do anyway.
I guess some people won’t do what’s right unless there’s some kind of profit in it for them. At least this correspondence proves that a member of the SM council knows that her website contains lies that she will not remove. I wonder how many more of those endorsements are being used falsely.
So, to whomever asked me why I said Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone are associated with a criminal organization, here’s further proof. Farrar and Bone are tied into a program that not only libels its former members; it’s also a program that refuses to practice honest advertising.
Blessings,
Scott
Scott,
I think they’re asking you for a resolution and some public closure. Is that wrong to ask in light of all of this hurt that you have caused to many because you have felt hurt? It really appears outwardly that won’t let it go. I simply have to ask the obvious question: have you talked to the head of the school, and owner of the business, about this? I assume Amethyst is not the head, but Raven is? I’m not sure, but it seems that if you talked the head of the school and presented your request it might help. It is what any government agency would require you to do first, anyway. Frankly, from the sounds of how you continually come at this organization day after day for, what has it been now, just shy of one year (which could be construed as cyber-stalking), she would probably be glad to have it end and have you leave her and her group alone.
I don’t think they’re trying to censor you, I think they were trying to have you post that the situation has been amicably resolved between the two of you and that they would gladly remove your comment. I’m not sure why it couldn’t end there, as it would be true? Or would it not be resolved if they were to remove your endorsement and you simply will continue to harbor resentment? If you are so willing to post negatives to support your case, would you not be willing to post something positive that could bring an end to it all so that healing can begin for you, them, and everyone? For example, if you were to contact the head of the organization and she wrote you back a kind email agreeing to remove the endorsement, would you be so ready to post that here as easily as you did when posting what you did above? Think on that a moment.
As a point of fact, and not to be cruel, but you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to be worrying about this organization and you latest obsession is a very buried comment that you made that is posted on their website.
Ethics run both sides, Scott and you have really pushed the limits with this thread because you have made some very false and negligent statements that are unfounded entirely. I find it hard to hear a cry from someone regarding ethics when the crier himself is not being ethical.
What I would recommend is that you contact the owner of the school right away, and not a worker of the school, as that is where your point of contact lies. That is quite obvious. I am willing to bet that you will find that your issue will be taken care of swiftly, however will caution you that to continue this tirade is just to continue the very negative campaign you clearly have with this organization.
My suggestion? Take this as you will. Find a new hobby. This one is far from healthy for you, or anyone involved.
Go to the source, Scott, and make your request. The person you’re getting a response from doesn’t own that site therefore may not even have the ability to do what you’re asking them to do. My hope is that if you receive an amiable response and agreement from the owner, that you’ll do the ethical thing and post the positive reply here. I think that would go a long way toward what April said earlier — balance — and then we can all hope the healing can begin.
Blessed waters,
G.
Dear Scott,
I’ve been made aware of the posts being put here and had long ago sworn not to visit because it was simply a hurtful and harmful place to be. I have always been about constructive criticism and collective resolution rather than argumentative attacks and hurtful banter.
I don’t wish to dwell on the past, as surely we can all grow and learn from the challenges we’ve faced as we move forward; however I do want to say a few things to you before I move away from this blog for, I hope, the final time.
I am sorry, Scott. I’m sorry that you feel so wronged. I’m sorry that you feel so injured. I’m sorry that you are unable to let that hurt go and move on with your life. I’m sorry that you don’t trust me enough to know that Liesel was let go immediately after she posted here about you, as no harm, harassment, or release of private information is ever tolerated and is immediately dealt with.
I, of course, will happily remove your testimonial. Had you contacted me to ask that it be removed, I would have been glad to oblige your request. You have never been blocked from writing me. You had requested that none of your material that bears your copyright be used after you departed, and rest assured that has been 100% respected and will always be so.
I truly wish the very best for you, Scott. I wish also that you are able to find peace and harmony in your existence and that you allow the students of this school to find theirs as well. Trust in the fact that while your experience is important, it is your own and that people can and will make their own, educated decisions. We can all agree to disagree and understand that not every place to be in the world is right for every person that shares the world with us. That people who hold differing opinions are worthy of respect, love, and understanding that their opinions are right for them. That people have been, are, and can be happy within Sacred Mists and that I believe that every experience, be it positive or negative, is an opportunity to learn and grow. That we are presented challenges for exactly that reason and I believe that instead of trying to injure and cause pain to those who were a part of that experience, and lastly, that I can use that energy to explore the opportunity presented to me and, from there, become a better person, a better mentor, and a better Priestess.
May your path be blessed,
- Raven
“Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.”
– Romans 12:9-13
How can you know there is a God?
Romans 1:20 — For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Heaven - are you worthy?
Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
John 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 40 “Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you: 41 `BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’ ”
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1 Corinthians 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Luke 18:8 “I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
Matthew 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh– 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
1 Peter 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Matthew 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
But beware, you will be tested!
Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”
Romans 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
good to see all us heathens have been saved…good to know
I have also had a horrible experience with Lady Raven and her school. The shoppe has no customer service and she is not at all concerned with our spiritual growth. When I left the school, I left very angry, yet inlightened that there are such evil individuals in the craft. I would warn against ever going to the college or purchasing from her store. If you choose to, then be forwarned.
Jinnie
For BoardnSurfing…
I found it at SM wonderful…at first too. The “Leaders” can’t hide who they are for ever and when it come’s out..you feel like you are in the pits of Hell. I had a testimonial much like Mr. Hills. My feelings also changed as his did. Not many positive comments about SM on this thread….except from Student Council members.
Jinnie
Lady Raven has no problems harassing her students! I know a few people she has harassed! She personally doesn’t do any grading and leads only a few Sabbats. To even go to the next degree, even if you paid for longer admittance to the school, the student must again pay another $25 fee.
I personally found the lessons mediocre at best and have had better information at free schools. I found this lesson the hard way…
On a whim after reading all the good, bad and ugly that this blog contains with reference to Sacred Mists, I joined this community and School.
For the last two weeks I have been reviewing my lessons and looking around the boards. The Student Instructors appear to be quite knowledgeable and encourage your growth. I have contacted Lady Raven to find out how she keeps up with student progress and if she concerns herself with it at all. To my surprise she responded to my Private Message on their forums stating that she uses the forums and the Magickal Journals we are to create to keep track of each student and their progress. The Student Council she stated helps her spot and work with students who may need extra help in their path and studies and she happily works with those students in addition to appointing a 3rd Degree Student to help them along. I found her openness and honesty regarding this refreshing. It’s true that I have not been there very long; however, I look forward to continuing to learn from them and seeing what the future holds for myself and Sacred Mists.
For now I shall sign off and wish each person the best of luck in their Spiritual Path. By the powers of 3×3 I send to you all blessings and wishes for growth and peace for the highest good of all.
Namaste,
Dragonfly
I have no idea what’s going on here, but I will say that I laughed my ASS off when I got to that crazy POEM!! I mean, seriously, that dude is saying that he’s all pissed about what this Mists College did to him and he’s moved on yet there he sits in his internet cave writing bad POETRY about this place, and his former HPS??? And he calls himself “gifted?” Hahahaha….
Uh, I don’t know anything about Mists College, but I would NOT take the word of creepy poetry guy and maybe just research it for myself. Why would anyone believe the crazy rambling of the loonies on this comment thread vs. just checking out themselves? If there are so many other students there as someone stated, they can’t all be brainwashed sycophants as poetry guy claims.
I think I’m going to check out the Mists myself, I hear they have some great testimonials. Hehehehe….
-witchy
I am a student of SM. I have been a student for over 3.5 years. I am not on the council. I am not a member of leadership. I am nearing the end of my second degree. I have spent the past 3 and a half years working on my spiritual growth, my personal growth, and my growth as a leader in the pagan community. Lady Raven and members of the Council, along with my fellow students and friends, have been instrumental in that growth process. Have I had moments where I struggled? Absolutely. Did I have moments where I wanted to quit? Yes. But I didn’t, I kept going and pushed through my spiritual blocks and feel more clear and whole than I ever have in my life. Is the school the ‘end all’. No. It is a place where I have strengthened myself and my knowledge as a person and have since taken that out into the world. Yes. I am a member of other internet groups, I travel to public circles and attend pagan gatherings outside of SM. I have even written articles for publication in pagan magazines. All of this because I was able to learn and grow in a place that assisted me to do that. Sacred Mists. And I am very grateful for finding them.
The leaders of SM are vigilant in their administration of the program and the college. They create and maintain a very safe place for everyone to be. Let’s face it, the internet can be a nasty place in some forums. Just look at this one, for example. Not many people feel safe sharing their feelings, thoughts or experiences when there is a fear of bashing and flaming, or belittling. That is not allowed in SM and people that do anything like that, or create issues for other students or disrupt their learning process, are dealt with. They have to be. It is that knowledge that enables people like me to feel safe in expressing themselves openly in an online group.
Someone asked why there aren’t more students coming here to support SM. I have to counter that question with, “why should they?” The students at SM are happy. Sure, there are a very few that leave in a huff. Usually it is because they are causing problems in the school and have had to be dealt with directly by administration to make them stop. They don’t like that at all, of course, so they either leave or are removed and naturally they’ll be disgruntled about it. There are several of those people I recognize here as having been one of those students. I just want to remind us all to never forget there will always be two sides to every story and that, until you hear the other side of an argument, you can never know what the real story is. Ultimately it is up to each reader that comes across this ridiculous, venomous blog to decide whether they will also reach out to SM and hear their side of the story before passing potentially unwarranted judgment against a very admirable and very hard working organization that has helped me, and thousands upon thousands of others, reach their spiritual and personal potential.
If SM wasn’t for you, find a place that is. Or create your own place to be. But recognize that you are a large part of whatever experience you had within SM, and you created your own path toward whatever end and outcome that came to pass. You are not a victim. You were and are a participant in whatever transpired. Until you recognize that and learn from it, you can trust that you’ll be stuck right here in this place. Reading this blog. Feeling your bitterness rise. Searching the SM name on the internet and staying stuck right in the place that created you leaving in the first place. You know exactly what that is. So does the leadership of SM. No one else really knows what happened, do they? Anything can be said on the internet, truthful or not. Freedom of speech, and all that, right?
I’d like to think that as a 43 year old man I am well capable of seeing people as they are. I believe I am a good judge of character and you better believe that if I smelled something wrong, I’d be out of and away from wherever it was in a hot second. SM is none of the things these people are stating here, however I understand that it was their own experience and I acknowledge it as such. However, I must take into account what I said in the previous paragraph and realize that they are seeing what they want to see, perhaps jaded by whatever response they got from the organization because of their own actions. Bearing witness to a couple of these people’s antics in SM before their departure, I can say with utmost certainty that that is the case and I for one am glad of their removal from our program because their energy was so negative, so problematic for some that it made it hard to learn around them. I’m sure that whatever transpired in that process of dealing with the issues was not easy for SM leaders nor the people who was at the center of the issues at hand (or the other students who were affected by the person creating the issues - let’s not forget them in this), but these things had to be dealt with and I am sure that this is where all of this bitterness stems from. No more, no less.
I’d also like to say that I have had great experiences when buying from the store. Sure, sometimes something is out of stock but that happens anywhere you shop, no matter where it is. SM manages any issue quickly and takes care of the customer in whatever the issue is. There is a toll-free telephone number where customer service is handled and there are staff members that respond to email questions about orders or product, if I have them. I order from other online stores and have had the same, and sometimes times worse, shopping experiences as I’ve had shopping at SM. Their merchandise is top notch quality and their selection is unsurpassed. To the person that says there is no customer service, I challenge that statement as utterly false.
SM will always be my coven, my tradition, my spiritual home. It is stated up front that it may not be for everyone; then again, what place is? But for thousands of students around the whole of the world, SM is a really transformational and amazing place to grow, to learn, and to be. Check it out for yourself before letting a handful of bitter people who likely caused issues for other SM students before they left, which likely forced their obviously bitter departure, before you make one-sided decisions based on their statements here. That would be the right, fair, and as someone else mentioned earlier, balanced, thing to do.
Blessed be,
Greg E. Marshall
Also known as Spirithawk
Student of Sacred Mists
Mundalien, IL
The latest from the BBB:
On June 02, 2009, the business provided the following information:
Contact Name and Title: Lorien Carrillo,President
Contact Phone: 707-255-8005
Contact Email: raven@workingwitches.com
To whom it may concern,
The testimonial of our program that Mr. Hill wrote of his own accord and provided us with permission to use was removed from our website on 5/14/2009, which was the very date on which we received his first and only request to do so. This is something he is well aware of.
His statement made within this claim of his being threatened by our council members is another far reaching, untrue and libelous statement. Mr. Hill’s continuing libel and defamation is on record through various online websites, all of which are currently under review by our lawyer in Napa, CA. This current complaint will be forwarded to his law office, as well.
To reiterate, Mr. Hill’s testimonial is not on our website and was removed immediately upon my receipt of his request that he sent directly to one of my staff members, rather than the company itself, on May 14, 2009. This appears to be one day prior to his issuing this complaint through the BBB.
I would like to state in closing that while Mr. Hill left our program due to a series of unfortunate disciplinary actions, we do wish him well and hope that can move forward without continuing his attempts to inflict harm on our business nor the persons who work within it.
I want to thank you for your time and assistance with this matter and hope that this response is sufficient to close the complaint as resolved. We appreciate the opportunity to share our experience with this former student and our thoughts on the issue at hand.
Should you require additional information at any time, please do not hesitate to contact us directly. We are more than happy to assist.
Many kind regards,
- Sacred Mists
——–
I have checked the Sacred Mists website, and I find that the testimonial has been removed from the public portion on the site.
The above letter includes a number of non-equators. One of them, which consists of legal threats, has absolutely nothing to do with the endorsement.
According to the FTC, the endorsement should have been removed as soon as I left the organization - which would be almost a year ago. Nothing was done to remove this false endorsement until I made the recent request. An ethical company would have removed false testimony immediately. Also, no one at the company has offered to post an apology for this heinous action.
This letter comes from “Sacred Mists” (an unknown entity), not from a person representing Sacred Mists. Yes, Lorien Carrillo is the contact person, but how are we to know whether or not she even wrote this letter? I would like her to be accountable for her actions instead of trying to get others to take the fall for her as I observed her doing on many occasions while I was with the Sacred Mists program.
I’m sorry. I would dearly love to find a middle ground. But, with these legal threats being held over my head, I’m afraid I cannot. Please inform Ms. Carrillo that her response is unacceptable. I believe this means you will be administratively closing the case. I can accept this, since there is nothing more to be done.
———-
Yes, it looks like I’ll be seeing Lorien in court because she’s got her lawyers on my case. Honestly, I’m worried. I’d have to be. I know she’s got they money to bribe the judge. But I know I am in the right, and I have evidence to show it, so I’m willing to accept whatever further “punishment” Carillo is trying to dish out for my questioning her morals.
Again, Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, why are you associating yourselves with this organization? Don’t you want to help people instead of just bleeding their wallets?
Blessings,
Scott
P.S. REAL TRUTH, here is a Mystic Wicks thread about Bible verses that may interest you: http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=210364.
P.P.S. I’m a Witch, I’m glad you know the difference between poetry and facts. My poetry was actually much praised at the Mists - I hear they’re still using some of it against copyright laws. Perhaps, if you join the school, you could let me know. I was trying to show an emotional response to Carrillo’s abuse. I wasn’t trying to write a manual on how to use a printer. Yes, they have some great (and, as we’ve all seen by now, often false) testimonials.
P.P.P.S. (if there is such a thing
- Potential, how are you determining whether or not Lorien is spending the time it takes to properly review this content? Does she glance at it once a week, once a month, once a year? She told me at one point that she had read my second degree final. So I decided to test her. When I asked her some very basic questions about what I’d written, she was completely clueless. But she kept insisting she really had read it. I guess reading something makes little difference if you can’t - or won’t - comprehend it.
Scott –
Do you have any idea how ludicrous you sound? I cannot believe I just read what you wrote. So much that I had to read it again because in one sentence you showed yourself.
You wrote:
“Honestly, I’m worried. I’d have to be. I know she’s got they money to bribe the judge.”
Are you freaking SERIOUS? Really?
You have to be one of the most insane people I’ve ever come across on the internet. Keep it up though, you’re proving their reasons for not having you at their organization with every post you make and, if the letter to they wrote in response to you at the BBB is any indication, you might want to think twice before posting any more of your crap on the internet. Opinion is one thing. Freedom of speech is protected under the law, however libel and slander is not. Libel is very real and I can see several areas in this blog, and yes, on the Mysticwicks blog too, where you’ve severely crossed the line with regard to this organization and some of the people within it.
Seriously man, step away from the computer and think before you speak. You’re sounding more unstable by the second. You’re doing yourself more harm than good, Scott. In my opinion you need professional help, and not of the legal kind.
Witching Hour.
You are all an embarrassment to the craft.
This should have been over long ago. Speak your peace then move on. If anyone wants stuff removed, get it removed by contacting the company. Looks like they respond to those requests from where I’m sitting. Looks like this Scott person has a chip on his shoulder.
People here have said what they had to say. Looks like it should have been over a year ago. Why continue it? Scott, you didn’t have to come post the BBB note, did you? Obviously you contacted the BBB first and privately about a problem. Finally got them to take a report, did you? Seems like they handled it by letting you say yours and them have a response. Why bring it to everyone else unless you just enjoy the drama? Did I hit the nail on the head? You said “you’d love to find a middle ground”. Who are you kidding? I don’t see any desire to have a middle ground. All I see is people keep asking you what your point is, but you never say. You don’t want a middle ground, you want revenge.
Honestly, I hope that this group does take you to court. Maybe you’ll learn something about libel, defamation, and, here’s a new one for you, internet harassment. Personally, I think you deserve it after everything I’ve read here. Your mission is not to educate people but to defame and hurt the organization. That’s so clear, it’s like looking through water crystal. And then, maybe this stupid bickering will finally end.
GET A LIFE PEOPLE.
DEU 29:18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
2CH 12:14 He did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the LORD.
JOB 14:4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
22:5 Is not your wickedness great? Are not your sins endless?
PSA 25:11 For the sake of your name, O LORD, forgive my iniquity, though it is great.
95:10 For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, “They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.”
PRO 4:23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
24:8 He who plots evil will be known as a schemer.
9 The schemes of folly are sin, and men detest a mocker.
ECC 5:6 Do not let your mouth lead you into sin. And do not protest to the temple messenger, “My vow was a mistake.” Why should God be angry at what you say and destroy the work of your hands?
ISA 1:6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness– only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.
44:20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”
JER 7:24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward.
17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
EZE 20:16 because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols.
MAT 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
13:24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand.
11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.
17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’”
JOH 8:34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
ROM 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
1CO 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?
EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
HEB 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
JAM 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?
2 You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.
3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.
2PE 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
1JO 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
GEN 13:8 So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers.
45:24 Then he sent his brothers away, and as they were leaving he said to them, “Don’t quarrel on the way!”
DEU 1:12 But how can I bear your problems and your burdens and your disputes all by myself?
PSA 31:20 In the shelter of your presence you hide them from the intrigues of men; in your dwelling you keep them safe from accusing tongues.
55:9 Confuse the wicked, O Lord, confound their speech, for I see violence and strife in the city.
80:6 You have made us a source of contention to our neighbors, and our enemies mock us.
PRO 3:30 Do not accuse a man for no reason–when he has done you no harm.
6:12 A scoundrel and villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye, signals with his feet and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart–he always stirs up dissension.
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
15:18 A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.
16:28 A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.
17:1 Better a dry crust with peace and quiet than a house full of feasting, with strife.
14 Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out.
19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
18:6 A fool’s lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.
20:3 It is to a man’s honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.
22:10 Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife; quarrels and insults are ended.
23:29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
25:8 do not bring hastily to court, for what will you do in the end if your neighbor puts you to shame?
26:17 Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own.
20 Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.
21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife.
28:25 A greedy man stirs up dissension, but he who trusts in the LORD will prosper.
29:22 An angry man stirs up dissension, and a hot-tempered one commits many sins.
GEN 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the
LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not
eat from any tree in the garden’?”
4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman.
5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you
will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will
crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your
offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
1SA 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil
spirit from the LORD tormented him.
2SA 23:6 But evil men are all to be cast aside like thorns, which are not
gathered with the hand.
7 Whoever touches thorns uses a tool of iron or the shaft of a spear; they
are burned up where they lie.”
1KI 22:22 “‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. “‘I will go out and be a lying
spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in
enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
1CH 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census
of Israel.
JOB 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and
Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the
LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything
he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and
herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will
surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your
hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out
from the presence of the LORD.
2:3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who
fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you
incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own
life.
5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will
surely curse you to your face.”
6 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you
must spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with
painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
9:24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its
judges. If it is not he, then who is it?
PSA 109:6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him; let an accuser stand at his
right hand.
ZEC 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel
of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has
chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from
the fire?”
MAT 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by
the devil.
2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these
stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but
on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the
highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is
written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift
you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a
stone.’”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God
to the test.’”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the
kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship
me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship
the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by
Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his
possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his
house.
43 “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places
seeking rest and does not find it.
13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not
understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his
heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the
harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned;
then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the
age, and the harvesters are angels.
16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my
church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
MAR 3:22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said,
“He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out
demons.”
23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan
drive out Satan?
24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end
has come.
LUK 4:2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing
during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor,
for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
11:15 But some of them said, “By Beelzebub, the prince of demons, he is
driving out demons.”
21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions
are safe.
22 But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the
armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils.
13:16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has
kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from
what bound her?”
22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.
53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a
hand on me. But this is your hour–when darkness reigns.”
JOH 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and
you do what you have heard from your father.”
41 You are doing the things your own father does.” “We are not
illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God
himself.”
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your
father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the
truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native
language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this
world will be driven out.
13:2 The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted
Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. “What you are
about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him,
14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world
is coming. He has no hold on me,
16:11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now
stands condemned.
ACT 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your
heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some
of the money you received for the land?
13:10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is
right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never
stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
26:18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from
the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and
a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
ROM 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The
grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
1CO 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time,
so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so
that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
2CO 2:11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware
of his schemes.
4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they
cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image
of God.
6:15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer
have in common with an unbeliever?
11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s
cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure
devotion to Christ.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of
righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly
great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of
Satan, to torment me.
EPH 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world
and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work
in those who are disobedient.
4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
6:11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against
the devil’s schemes.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the
rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil
comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done
everything, to stand.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with
the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel
of peace.
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you
can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
COL 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought
us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public
spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
1TH 2:18 For we wanted to come to you–certainly I, Paul, did, again and
again–but Satan stopped us.
3:5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out
about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have
tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.
2TH 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work
of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
1TI 1:20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over
to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall
under the same judgment as the devil.
7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not
fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
5:15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
2TI 2:26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap
of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
HEB 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their
humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of
death–that is, the devil–
JAM 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will
flee from you.
1PE 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your
brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to
hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
1JO 2:13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from
the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the
evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been
sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to
destroy the devil’s work.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of
the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God;
nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his
brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and
his brother’s were righteous.
5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who
was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
JUD 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but
abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with
everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil
about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation
against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
REV 2:9 I know your afflictions and your poverty–yet you are rich! I know
the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue
of Satan.
10 Do not be afraid of what yo