1
1 In Babylon there lived a man named Joakim,
2
who married a very beautiful and God-fearing woman, Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah;
3
her pious parents had trained their daughter according to the law of Moses.
4
Joakim was very rich; he had a garden near his house, and the Jews had recourse to him often because he was the most respected of them all.
5
That year, two elders of the people were appointed judges, of whom the Lord said, “Wickedness has come out of Babylon: from the elders who were to govern the people as judges.”
6
These men, to whom all brought their cases, frequented the house of Joakim.
7
When the people left at noon, Susanna used to enter her husband’s garden for a walk.
8
When the old men saw her enter every day for her walk, they began to lust for her.
9
They suppressed their consciences; they would not allow their eyes to look to heaven, and did not keep in mind just judgments.
10
Though both were enamored of her, they did not tell each other their trouble,
11
for they were ashamed to reveal their lustful desire to have her.
12
Day by day they watched eagerly for her.
13
One day they said to each other, “Let us be off for home, it is time for lunch.” So they went out and parted;
14
but both turned back, and when they met again, they asked each other the reason. They admitted their lust, and then they agreed to look for an occasion when they could meet her alone.
15
One day, while they were waiting for the right moment, she entered the garden as usual, with two maids only. She decided to bathe, for the weather was warm.
16
Nobody else was there except the two elders, who had hidden themselves and were watching her.
17
“Bring me oil and soap,” she said to the maids, “and shut the garden doors while I bathe.”
18
They did as she said; they shut the garden doors and left by the side gate to fetch what she had ordered, unaware that the elders were hidden inside.
19
As soon as the maids had left, the two old men got up and hurried to her.
20
“Look,” they said, “the garden doors are shut, and no one can see us; give in to our desire, and lie with us.
21
If you refuse, we will testify against you that you dismissed your maids because a young man was here with you.”
22
“I am completely trapped,” Susanna groaned. “If I yield, it will be my death; if I refuse, I cannot escape your power.
23
Yet it is better for me to fall into your power without guilt than to sin before the Lord.”
24
Then Susanna shrieked, and the old men also shouted at her,
25
as one of them ran to open the garden doors.
26
When the people in the house heard the cries from the garden, they rushed in by the side gate to see what had happened to her.
27
At the accusations by the old men, the servants felt very much ashamed, for never had any such thing been said about Susanna.
28
When the people came to her husband Joakim the next day, the two wicked elders also came, fully determined to put Susanna to death. Before all the people they ordered:
29
“Send for Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah, the wife of Joakim.” When she was sent for,
30
she came with her parents, children and all her relatives.
31
Susanna, very delicate and beautiful,
32
was veiled; but those wicked men ordered her to uncover her face so as to sate themselves with her beauty.
33
All her relatives and the onlookers were weeping.
34
In the midst of the people the two elders rose up and laid their hands on her head.
35
Through her tears she looked up to heaven, for she trusted in the Lord wholeheartedly.
36
The elders made this accusation: “As we were walking in the garden alone, this woman entered with two girls and shut the doors of the garden, dismissing the girls.
37
A young man, who was hidden there, came and lay with her.
38
When we, in a corner of the garden, saw this crime, we ran toward them.
39
We saw them lying together, but the man we could not hold, because he was stronger than we; he opened the doors and ran off.
40
Then we seized this one and asked who the young man was,
41
but she refused to tell us. We testify to this.” The assembly believed them, since they were elders and judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.
42
But Susanna cried aloud: “O eternal God, you know what is hidden and are aware of all things before they come to be:
43
you know that they have testified falsely against me. Here I am about to die, though I have done none of the things with which these wicked men have charged me.”
44
The Lord heard her prayer.
45
As she was being led to execution, God stirred up the holy spirit of a young boy named Daniel,
46
and he cried aloud: “I will have no part in the death of this woman.”
47
All the people turned and asked him, “What is this you are saying?”
48
He stood in their midst and continued, “Are you such fools, O Israelites! To condemn a woman of Israel without examination and without clear evidence?
49
Return to court, for they have testified falsely against her.”
50
Then all the people returned in haste. To Daniel the elders said, “Come, sit with us and inform us, since God has given you the prestige of old age.”
51
But he replied, “Separate these two far from one another that I may examine them.”
52
After they were separated one from the other, he called one of them and said: “How you have grown evil with age! Now have your past sins come to term:
53
passing unjust sentences, condemning the innocent, and freeing the guilty, although the Lord says, “The innocent and the just you shall not put to death.’
54
Now, then, if you were a witness, tell me under what tree you saw them together.”
55
2 “Under a mastic tree,” he answered. “Your fine lie has cost you your head,” said Daniel; “for the angel of God shall receive the sentence from him and split you in two.”
56
Putting him to one side, he ordered the other one to be brought. “Offspring of Canaan, not of Judah,” Daniel said to him, “beauty has seduced you, lust has subverted your conscience.
57
3 This is how you acted with the daughters of Israel, and in their fear they yielded to you; but a daughter of Judah did not tolerate your wickedness.
58
Now, then, tell me under what tree you surprised them together.”
59
“Under an oak,” he said. “Your fine lie has cost you also your head,” said Daniel; “for the angel of God waits with a sword to cut you in two so as to make an end of you both.”
60
The whole assembly cried aloud, blessing God who saves those that hope in him.
61
They rose up against the two elders, for by their own words Daniel had convicted them of perjury. According to the law of Moses, they inflicted on them the penalty they had plotted to impose on their neighbor:
62
they put them to death. Thus was innocent blood spared that day.
63
Hilkiah and his wife praised God for their daughter Susanna, as did Joakim her husband and all her relatives, because she was found innocent of any shameful deed.
64
And from that day onward Daniel was greatly esteemed by the people.

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Footnotes

1 [1] 13, 1-14, 42: The short stories in these two chapters may have originally been about some other Daniel or Daniels Than the hero of the main part of the book. They exist now only in Greek, but probably were first composed in Hebrew or Aramaic. They are excluded from the Jewish canon of Scripture, but the Church has always included them among the inspired writings.

2 [55] 13, 55-59: The contrast between the mastic tree, which is small, and the majestic oak emphasizes the contradiction between the statements of the two elders. In the Greek text there is a play on words between the names of these two trees and the mortal punishment decreed by Daniel for the elders.

3 [57] 13, 57: Besides the evident moral intent of this story, it appears to have served the purpose of contrasting the northern and the southern kingdoms, Israel and Judah, in favor of the latter.

418 - holy fogger,
426 - SMSC with keywords,
432 - and the most recent pseudonym, paganproud.

Really, you should try to be more discreet if you don’t want to say who it really is. You are painfully obvious.

Ya know what though, Scott? You sure do make a lot of sense! You are sooo right on the money (no pun intended)! All of the leaders at SM are all sitting on beaches all day getting completely wasted off their asses all the while laughing at everyone that goes to the school. They spend a chunk of the money that all of those people give for their fake training on more booze. In fact, just in the past couple of years, Farrar and Bone have decided to leave their 30 or more years of teaching and practicing to sit on the beach with all of the SM’ers and continue their tirade of mind-controlling all of the people that follow them. (Don’t forget Bill Gates. Yep, he’s right there with them.) They’re all blasted drunk, too! And all of them just sit around, laughing at the people of the world and counting the money that they’re all getting rich on. Not a one of them have any credence in the craft. All of them, every single one of ‘em are charlatans, and anyone who ever had anything to do with SM, the Farrars or Bone are totally off their rockers stupid.

Wow Scott, I mean really. You are a genius! I can’t even believe how smart you are to have boiled it all down like that. It’s so obvious that’s what’s going on!!! Thank the gods that there’s someone like you on our planet that can clear up all of this for us because we are just lowly people with normal IQ’s. We need someone like you, who is smart, to lead us so we don’t fall prey to the drunks and mind-controllers!!!!

Rolling eyes…

Now then, back to reality:

I would say that SM let you in as they do with everyone. There are no background checks, and just as with any school you are expected to behave as is socially acceptable for the group or educational setting you are a part of. If, over time, you prove yourself to be otherwise then the logical step would be to counsel you, cite you, and, if necessary, dismiss you because of your actions or behavior. Therefore, in answer to your confusion above, I believe that they allowed a vile, dangerous, cyber-stalker to be a part of their group and allowed him to begin participating in leadership opportunities within the organization because the kind of disruption you demonstrated at the end had not come to light as of yet. As time went on, you revealed your disruptive and loathsome attitudes which resulted in your eventual removal from the program. Sounds like the right thing to do as far as the leadership of SM is concerned, and in fact is a very normal and commonplace thing to do under the circumstances within any organization. GOOD FOR THEM. They did the right thing, very clearly. As for you, Scott? You have proven yourself to be nothing but a complete embarrassment to the pagan community. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ann, you said, “I would be very careful talking negatively about them” in reference to Bone and Farrar. Are you making threats on their behalf or just expressing your own fear of their awe-inspiring power? If they have threatened you or coerced you into saying this, you should call the authorities and report them - you don’t have to be afraid of them. I dont think its true though. I think Bone and Farrar are a couple of magical half-wits - thats why they’re at SM instead of alegitimate magical forum.

Heres what I don’t get about SM:
1. either they are totally lying about Scott Hill which shows their dishonestly or
2. they allowed a vile, dangerous cyber-stalker to teach & lead ritua at their school for years, which shows they utterly fail to protect their members

One or the other must be true. Think about it.

paganproud (and proud NOT to be in SM)

Here it is almost nine years later and I’m still paying that grandfathered tuition. SM is my home and, after being with CW for almost 1 year before it closed, I can say from personal experience that there is no comparison when looking at the two schools. It is apples to oranges, with CW being a mere shadow of what SM is. I’m grateful that SM came into my life and brought its tradition online. I’ve grown so much in the past years with them spiritually and personally. The money I pay to attend and be a part of this is nothing in comparison with what I get back.

Blessings,
Susan R.

So if I get the gist of this thread correct, pagans expect to get a free education. Are pagans anti-capitalism? Socialists? Communists? I don’t get it. Pagans don’t believe in a fair exchange of goods and services? They expect members of their community to give them time, energy and knowledge in exchange for, what? Nothing?

I could see where in past times a member of a coven could give a wheel of cheese or a hand-crocheted blanket or a basket of muffins in exchange for services, but in the internet age, what would a pagan give in exchange for an education they were seeking, to someone so far away that this becomes impractical?

And this argument is about $20.00 a month? Do pagans not have a Starbucks habit? Do they not buy fast food? Are pagans those who are generally poorer than your average person? If so, why? Are pagans in general people who want to learn but lack the skills to support themselves and must find free offerings in order to pull themselves up? Do the pagans who expect free from others also spend a good portion of their day giving something for nothing to others? Is that how it works?

There are many pagans schools on the internet charging different prices. Some of them are free. There is a choice. Do pagans not allow choices? Do pagans insist that something must be given for nothing or it has no value? Isn’t it really the other way around in real life?

One of the pagan schools mentioned here apparently doesn’t even bother with a business license nor pay taxes on the money they charge. Is THAT a fair exchange of goods and services?

I can understand if someone CHOOSES to donate their time, energy and knowledge for the benefit of the community at large. One would assume in that case the person would have other resources to help them survive in a community that uses money in exchange for living expenses.

But to DEMAND someone offer their time, energy and knowledge and not expect to give something back? Unbelievable!

Maybe that’s why many of you are unsuccessful at life. Balance is the key to success. Work hard, give back, reorganize your priorities and make education one of them. And don’t ask of others what you are unwilling to do yourself. Open your own pagan educational institution online, make it a success, and then come back here and tell us how you did it for free.

Geesh. Who knew? Think I’ll pass on this paganism stuff, it seems very selfish and immature. Maybe I can find some enlightenment somewhere else.

What I’ve gathered, Sacred Mists charges $20 per month as a tuition fee. I think that is a very reasonable amount! And again, that is my opinion, nobody else has to agree or disagree. You have to take into consideration the costs of running a business. And yes, this is a business! It also seems that Sacred Mists has salaried employees, and their pay has to come from somewhere as well. The owner of the college is also making a living here, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

If you look at the website for the college, it clearly describes the services and fees. So, those that feel strongly against the fees, they don’t have to sign up! Nobody is forcing them!

This is a business and the owner is making money. I say, GOOD FOR HER! Why is that wrong? She is running a legitimate business, and not cheating anyone. She clearly discloses the charges before one signs up.

I don’t understand why we need to put down a woman that is running a business that is more than that - it is a place that many clearly feel loved and supported. It seems that many are learning and growing within the college.

To everyone at Sacred Mists College, including the owner:
Way to go! Keep up the good work! I wish there were more people like you, creating a safe learning environment within the Craft.

As far as Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone go, they are some of the most wonderful and amazing people living on this planet at the moment. I would be very careful talking negatively about them! I think it’s great that they have partnered with the Sacred Mists College and offer their knowledge and wisdom alongside the Sacred Mists classes.

Time to look at the positives, don’t you think?!?

Blessed Be,
Ann

I was a student under the previous incarnation (Crystal Waterfall). I originally signed up because I like a little bit of structure in learning. Having classes and assignments helped me. When I studied (as far as I remember), the material and classes were free, and I was allowed to pay $20 at the end of the course for my certificate and cord (though, now that I think about it, I had asked for specially dispensation because I was a poor college student). I participated in a wonderful online ceremony and felt like I had earned it. When the college changed hands, being a poor mundane college student, I couldn’t afford to continue. I thought the tuition extreamly expensive, especially for material that I could get almost anywhere. I had to look elsewhere. I don’t even remember being grandfathered in. The whole experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Like, I said, just my 2 cents.

1. Lorien Carrillo’s yearly earnings (yes, in case you missed it, this does have to do with her business)

That’s none of your business, but obviously one of your primary obsessions. It is clear that the business is not run as a non-profit organization. Why don’t you go ask a non-public or for profit business to disclose their yearly earnings. You can ask all you want, but you’re not going to get it and bottom line is that it’s none of your business. What pisses you off most? That they make money, or you don’t? How about go get a job or something, maybe you’ll make money instead of sitting on your ass all day letting yourself obsess about a group that has had nothing to do with you for almost two years unless you go and wave more bullshit in their faces in your repeated attempts to provoke them? It’s insane.

2. SM “leadership”’s legitimacy - Do leaders who think madness is funny (Nancy Cox Fader) and trials are unnecessary (Rowan Pendragon) qualify as good leaders?

So you’re admitting your mad? About time! Again, you’re full of shit on these points and you know it. Or maybe you don’t. Mad people have difficulty differentiating their own fantasy from reality. It’s hard to feel sorry for someone that refuses to stop and get some help, and instead chooses to continue to cause harm to those he holds such loathing for.

Now as far as legitimacy of any of those people, again that is none of your business. You are not part of the organization and it is up to the organization (not you) to determine effectiveness and ability in holding any given position within it. That is true within any company, business, or organization. Get used to it.

3. The fact that Lorien Carrillo violates FTC laws (again, related to business). It was also related to business when she pinned the blame on A. Lilyth Minnig.

I read that here when you posted it. So they didn’t take your testimonial down. It’s down now. Doesn’t make them criminal. I see you don’t have a business license but are accepting money for services anyway, against your federal, state, and local laws. Does that make you a criminal?

4. The fact that Liesel Jameson and others spread confidential information about those associated with the business, thus putting “students” (I put this in quotes because the “school” is not accredited in any way) in danger of… yes, being stalked and harassed as I’ve been.

You are not stalked, you are not harassed. I challenge you right here and right now to PROVE that you are being stalked and harassed by anyone associated with the company in any way, shape, or form that you yourself have not provoked or incited and received response to your own action or words.

Confidential is not a word that should be associated with anything you put on the internet. You posted the things that were said about you here in a group forum. While I don’t agree with how it was done, it was still not sealed by the court and you shouldn’t expect privacy. I see you don’t consider anything private at all regardless of when or where anything was said to you, whether it be personal, medical, or otherwise. Hi pot, meet kettle.

5. The fact that Lorien Carrillo allows herself to be evoked as a Goddess in Sacred Mists rituals (at least, this was the case when I left - that alone should be cause for her to resign her position).

What utter bullshit. I mean really. What complete and utter bullshit. First off, a High Priestess in ritual often Draws Down the Moon, acting as Goddess, the male counterpart acting as God. High Priest and Priestess, the energy of deity working within and through them. Clearly you don’t understand ritual and the roles that are played out during them or you wouldn’t even be bringing this up. As for resigning a position? Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t she the legal business owner of the company? If she resigned, wouldn’t that mean the business would cease to exist? So you’re saying she should just shut the doors because you think she sucks? Sorry, but you’re ridiculous and I’m sure everyone involved with that organization would concur. Not because they don’t know what they’re doing, but because they like it there.

6. The fact that allegedly reputable members of the magical community (Farrar and Bone) go along with this conduct for the sake of money, thus smearing the memories of those with whom they used to work.

The are a part of it because they, too, are educating the pagan community and yes, they are paid for their time and expertise and so they should be. They are deserving, incredible people and how dare you slander them! They have given more for our movement than you can even imagine and for you to go after them, as you do with anyone associated with your arch nemesis carrillo, is disgusting. You’re not making fans with your actions and words toward them, I’ll tell you that.